amimi
Team Stefan
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Post by amimi on Oct 11, 2014 8:50:11 GMT -5
Anyway I doubt this will last. If Stefan comes back he will be furious. Because free will was always the most valuable thing for him. He'll be very angry to know that Elena was compelled Exactly Kiki, Stefan will be furious! And yet in this episode Elena told Matt and Jeremy that Stefan was on board with the compulsion! I don't understand how he would be okay with that, for the reasons you mentioned. He won't be okay with Elena seeing Damon as a monster (because even Stefan doesn't see him that way anymore). He won't be okay with taking away her free will and risking her rebounding to Stefan again (which wouldn't be her genuine feelings). I too am disappointed with the compulsion SL, since it's just another device to move the story along. But we need to stand back and realize that this show has always done some variation of that... ie: altering someone's identity/memory/perspective so they can stir up the dynamic among the main characters and make things interesting. Think of Tyler's werewolf transformation, Stefan becoming ripper/amnesia, all the doppelganger stuff, ppl becoming vampires, body snatching, etc. It's kind of the fall back plot device for the show, period. Some of the transformations leave free will intact, but most of them don't. |
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Post by jennifer on Oct 11, 2014 9:36:58 GMT -5
In terms of the pancakes, I think Zack was living in the Salvatore boarding house, hence there would have been food in the house? Then, as has been mentioned, each day being the same day, they have the same food available in the morning. Possibly the same goes for Damon and blood. As it is the same day, he wakes up with the same amount of thirst? Good thinking about Zach, and Damon's thirst. It's not overwhelming, if he's thirsty at all, because he touched his fangs and they were retracted even with Bonnie next to him. If Damon does need a dollop of blood, it's very hard to imagine Bonnie donating! Maybe she's taking one for the team. I hope we find out the answer. I think we solved the food dilemma.  |
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Kiki
Team Stefan
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Post by Kiki on Oct 11, 2014 9:46:55 GMT -5
There seems to be always fresh eggs so I tuink since they are living the same day over and over the food the ate is back fresh and untouched every morning and same might go for the bloodbags
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Post by jennifer on Oct 11, 2014 10:36:46 GMT -5
We all know damon will be back at some point and I am sure Alaric will decompell her. But compelling it away now makes her see reality again. So if she can become her old self again now she might be strong enough not to fall into damon addiction again. It took the sirebond to delete her love for stefan and open the way for delena. But they said now it wasn't the sirebond that made her love damon but it was just the push she needed to choose him. I think alarics compulsion will just be the push into the other direction and it will later turn out to be elenas real choice to leave her worst self behind. A choice that got a little help from the compulsion But the compulsion isn't based on reality. Alaric altered the memory with a false ones. So she isn't seeing reality at all because she isn't seeing the good things Damon did and only the bad because the good stuff was wiped. Like it or not Elena's love for Damon was before she was a vampire, and before the sirebond, and all while knowing what Damon is capable of...this episode took the Damon addiction off the table. The sire bond may have turned her love into an addiction but she still loved him before it became toxic. That was the point of this episode was to retcon season 3 a bit to show that. That Elena at her best self also loved Damon. The only positive for the compulsion in my opinion is no more whiny Elena, but the compulsion storyline in and of itself is BS. I agree the compulsion is an altered version of reality, just as much a problem as taking the drugs. Others have posted all the problems this will lead to with both brothers, plus her friends keeping it from her?? What a mess. It wasn't total BS though crimmyj, imo; Elena needed to admit to herself that she loved them both at the same time. That will come up again. I didn't realize she was in denial about that part. That's the piece she needs to know to deal with who to pick, or to pick no one, etc. It's a retcon, yes, but it's not changing history. Elena may not have admitted to herself she loved Damon, but she was aware of what others thought. In 3x21 Elena tells the guys she's knows she must seem selfish, that it seems like she's stringing them along, but she can't bear to lose either of them. She feels the need to choose though, later, as she talks to Matt. In her ethical system it's acceptable to feel like she doesn't want to lose either one, but not acceptable to love both and be like Kat. |
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Post by demetra on Oct 11, 2014 10:59:37 GMT -5
However, it just sunk in for me that her feelings for Stefan at that time were based on the Doppel spell. So they have done it--they've completed their three-year mission to erase Stelena from our memories.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 11, 2014 13:17:51 GMT -5
But the compulsion isn't based on reality. Alaric altered the memory with a false ones. So she isn't seeing reality at all because she isn't seeing the good things Damon did and only the bad because the good stuff was wiped. Like it or not Elena's love for Damon was before she was a vampire, and before the sirebond, and all while knowing what Damon is capable of...this episode took the Damon addiction off the table. The sire bond may have turned her love into an addiction but she still loved him before it became toxic. That was the point of this episode was to retcon season 3 a bit to show that. That Elena at her best self also loved Damon. The only positive for the compulsion in my opinion is no more whiny Elena, but the compulsion storyline in and of itself is BS. I agree the compulsion is an altered version of reality, just as much a problem as taking the drugs. Others have posted all the problems this will lead to with both brothers, plus her friends keeping it from her?? What a mess. It wasn't total BS though crimmyj, imo; Elena needed to admit to herself that she loved them both at the same time. That will come up again. I didn't realize she was in denial about that part. That's the piece she needs to know to deal with who to pick, or to pick no one, etc. It's a retcon, yes, but it's not changing history. Elena may not have admitted to herself she loved Damon, but she was aware of what others thought. In 3x21 Elena tells the guys she's knows she must seem selfish, that it seems like she's stringing them along, but she can't bear to lose either of them. She feels the need to choose though, later, as she talks to Matt. In her ethical system it's acceptable to feel like she doesn't want to lose either one, but not acceptable to love both and be like Kat. I understand what you are saying but that could have been done without then the compulsion and altering her memory. I wish after Alaric got her to admit that, that he would have then refused to change the "signature moment". He wasn't just taking Damon from her mind, he was taking events out and completely changing them. "Damon never gave you the necklace (her birthday), You went down the stairs but no one was there (mystic falls pageant), no one kissed anyone (hotel kiss)" It isn't making her see Damon for who he really is if you leave out all the other things he has done and completely wiped that from her memories. They could have easily gotten her to admit she loved them both without going through with the reformatting of Elena's brain. I for one do not want to see Stefan and Elena back together if they had to alter Damon and Elena's history to do so. And that is exactly what they did. |
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Post by demetra on Oct 11, 2014 15:08:13 GMT -5
I agree the compulsion is an altered version of reality, just as much a problem as taking the drugs. Others have posted all the problems this will lead to with both brothers, plus her friends keeping it from her?? What a mess. It wasn't total BS though crimmyj, imo; Elena needed to admit to herself that she loved them both at the same time. That will come up again. I didn't realize she was in denial about that part. That's the piece she needs to know to deal with who to pick, or to pick no one, etc. It's a retcon, yes, but it's not changing history. Elena may not have admitted to herself she loved Damon, but she was aware of what others thought. In 3x21 Elena tells the guys she's knows she must seem selfish, that it seems like she's stringing them along, but she can't bear to lose either of them. She feels the need to choose though, later, as she talks to Matt. In her ethical system it's acceptable to feel like she doesn't want to lose either one, but not acceptable to love both and be like Kat. I understand what you are saying but that could have been done without then the compulsion and altering her memory. I wish after Alaric got her to admit that, that he would have then refused to change the "signature moment". He wasn't just taking Damon from her mind, he was taking events out and completely changing them. "Damon never gave you the necklace (her birthday), You went down the stairs but no one was there (mystic falls pageant), no one kissed anyone (hotel kiss)" It isn't making her see Damon for who he really is if you leave out all the other things he has done and completely wiped that from her memories. They could have easily gotten her to admit she loved them both without going through with the reformatting of Elena's brain. I for one do not want to see Stefan and Elena back together if they had to alter Damon and Elena's history to do so. And that is exactly what they did. , I hear what you're saying. I certainly felt the threat of the choice Elena was making. They set it up so that it was done as carefully -- and thoroughly -- as it could be done. There is also the risk in Elena's assumption -- not different from the risk Damon took when he blew up the grill. Just as, as it happened, Damon couldn't get back, maybe Elena won't be able to recover those memories. They each risked their love for each other for something else: Damon to get Stefan back, Elena for her own survival. Just as Stefan left Elena to save Damon at the end of Season Two. It all goes back to--was it your--idea of: when has it ever worked out that not telling the truth on TVD was a good thing? In this case, how could it work out that not facing the truth, or living with it, would be the right thing to do? Even under false pretenses, we now will see how Elena, who theoretically is not "in love" with either Salvatore brother, will experience her vampirism. I wonder if Stefan will like what he finds next episode?! It also allows us to test some of the fan assumptions on both sides. Now Elena DOES remember what Damon did to Jeremy, at least the first time. Now she sees him as the monster many fans see him as. I wonder where this is going to go? |
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Post by katvolley13 on Oct 11, 2014 17:27:36 GMT -5
Very good point it has never been good but more severe effects for se than de in my opinion in all actuality this should be damon fighting his way back to elena similar to stefen it should take a portion of the season however he is coming back soon in four or five so I dont know it is going to be interesting
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Post by jennifer on Oct 11, 2014 19:33:03 GMT -5
I agree the compulsion is an altered version of reality, just as much a problem as taking the drugs. Others have posted all the problems this will lead to with both brothers, plus her friends keeping it from her?? What a mess. It wasn't total BS though crimmyj, imo; Elena needed to admit to herself that she loved them both at the same time. That will come up again. I didn't realize she was in denial about that part. That's the piece she needs to know to deal with who to pick, or to pick no one, etc. It's a retcon, yes, but it's not changing history. Elena may not have admitted to herself she loved Damon, but she was aware of what others thought. In 3x21 Elena tells the guys she's knows she must seem selfish, that it seems like she's stringing them along, but she can't bear to lose either of them. She feels the need to choose though, later, as she talks to Matt. In her ethical system it's acceptable to feel like she doesn't want to lose either one, but not acceptable to love both and be like Kat. I understand what you are saying but that could have been done without then the compulsion and altering her memory. I wish after Alaric got her to admit that, that he would have then refused to change the "signature moment". He wasn't just taking Damon from her mind, he was taking events out and completely changing them. "Damon never gave you the necklace (her birthday), You went down the stairs but no one was there (mystic falls pageant), no one kissed anyone (hotel kiss)" It isn't making her see Damon for who he really is if you leave out all the other things he has done and completely wiped that from her memories. They could have easily gotten her to admit she loved them both without going through with the reformatting of Elena's brain. I for one do not want to see Stefan and Elena back together if they had to alter Damon and Elena's history to do so. And that is exactly what they did. I don't want Elena & Stefan back together because of the compulsion. I trust Stefan won't take advantage of Elena in that way. From the music and look on Alaric's face when Elena called Damon a monster, I don't believe he expected that outcome. Her friends agreed to Elena's wishes because they thought the compulsion would take away Elena's grief, her need for drugs, and except for Caroline, no one thinks Damon will return. No one, including Elena, thought the outcome would be Elena hating Damon, forgetting all the good things about him. Alaric's description of the process was that each significant memory had to be altered in order to get deeper into Elena's mind to find the central moment when Elena realized she loved Damon. They could've left it at knowing the signature memory and not compelling it away, but Elena would continue to be in turmoil. Even after altering some of her memories, she still reverted to feeling unbearable grief and looking for Luke to get more drugs. I don't think this was a good plan (when do their plans ever work out?), but in story terms, the other options were to watch Elena try to heal naturally, episode after episode, or have her prematurely back to a functioning individual within a few episodes, or to watch her slide further down if Luke refused to make the drugs, and/or they stopped working for her. It's a pick your poison scenario imo. |
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Post by Andrew55 on Oct 11, 2014 22:03:29 GMT -5
I have an interesting thought regarding the writers and their transition from Stelena to Delena. I think, initially, in the first 2 seasons of the show they had every intention of making Stelena the endgame of the show because they didn't know how long the series would last. Then they got renewed for a 3rd season and had really good ratings and, at that point, knew they were going to be on for as many seasons as they would want to be. They also realized how passionate of a fan base they had in the Delena fans. And they began to realize having Stelena be the main focus and possible endgame would make for a tedious and monotonous narrative. Plus it would hurt the effort of creating huge buzz by connecting with Delena fans. By creating a Delena love story/possible endgame narrative they could breathe fresh air into the series and capitalize on the DE fan base for ratings. And I see no problem with that line of thinking. But they did a terrible job transitioning from SE to DE and it irritated a lot of fans. It also came off as a contrived and fan driven. And I believe they heard the complaints about that in S4. So Julie and Caroline in their divine wisdom *sarcasm* decided that instead of abandoning the DE SL or fixing it, they were going to retcon things to make it seem like it was their plan all along and not fan driven. They want fans to accept it and love the idea of DE not hate it like so many have. So what happened in S5? They introduced the doppel love spell to kind of devalue the SE love story. They also made Damon the hero at the end of the season to make fans sympathize with his character. Then in S6 they retcon the story to make us believe that Elena, not only developed feelings for Damon but fell in love with him in S3. That way it makes the whole 180 they did in early S4 seem like it makes more sense and logical. Now granted this is just a thought that I had and I don't even know if I believe it but it was interesting to think about.
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amimi
Team Stefan
Posts: 164
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Post by amimi on Oct 12, 2014 0:19:21 GMT -5
All of this retconning talk is bringing me back to the traumatic journey I went on as a Lost fan. We all got so invested in the possibilities of that narrative, only to have all that possibility trumped by the silly ending. While it was on, I was convinced I would one day watch that series again and again, looking for clues that I didn't see the first time. But the disappointing ending just ruined everything that came before, and I never watched it again.
I really hope TVD does not succumb to the same fate. If it does, I'm blaming it on Ian as the common denominator!
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Post by napoli on Oct 12, 2014 9:19:55 GMT -5
I have an interesting thought regarding the writers and their transition from Stelena to Delena. I think, initially, in the first 2 seasons of the show they had every intention of making Stelena the endgame of the show because they didn't know how long the series would last. Then they got renewed for a 3rd season and had really good ratings and, at that point, knew they were going to be on for as many seasons as they would want to be. They also realized how passionate of a fan base they had in the Delena fans. And they began to realize having Stelena be the main focus and possible endgame would make for a tedious and monotonous narrative. Plus it would hurt the effort of creating huge buzz by connecting with Delena fans. By creating a Delena love story/possible endgame narrative they could breathe fresh air into the series and capitalize on the DE fan base for ratings. And I see no problem with that line of thinking. But they did a terrible job transitioning from SE to DE and it irritated a lot of fans. It also came off as a contrived and fan driven. And I believe they heard the complaints about that in S4. So Julie and Caroline in their divine wisdom *sarcasm* decided that instead of abandoning the DE SL or fixing it, they were going to retcon things to make it seem like it was their plan all along and not fan driven. They want fans to accept it and love the idea of DE not hate it like so many have. So what happened in S5? They introduced the doppel love spell to kind of devalue the SE love story. They also made Damon the hero at the end of the season to make fans sympathize with his character. Then in S6 they retcon the story to make us believe that Elena, not only developed feelings for Damon but fell in love with him in S3. That way it makes the whole 180 they did in early S4 seem like it makes more sense and logical. Now granted this is just a thought that I had and I don't even know if I believe it but it was interesting to think about. If it really was fan driven then it's a horrible way to write a show. I don't believe the DE love story was fan service because then it makes it an after thought for the writers. I believe it was always their intention to have Elena love both brothers just as Katherine did. It also fulfills the theme of history repeating itself which runs throughout the series even if at times it's tedious as Enzo's promise to make Stefan's life miserable as Damon previously promised. The doppel spell did taint the SE when it was first introduced but then it was revealed to be a ruse. Had the doppel spell forced the doppels to be in love then Stefan would have loved Katherine when Elena was with Damon, Elena would have never been able to love Damon and Tom wouldn't have died without loving Elena. The sire bond served a purpose though. It just wasn't the one we thought it did. The sb didn't create Elena's love for Damon but it did erase Elena's love for Stefan. Elena could barely remember her time at the lake house with Stefan while she was there with Damon. The sire bond allowed her love for Damon to heighten and take complete hold while her love for Stefan was minimised. All this was to preserve Elena's character. It would have been much worse if Elena had just changed her mind and switched from one brother to the other. It just wouldn't have made sense especially given how compassionate and caring Elena was. It was also necessary for the writers to have DE's love story be real and begin prior to the sb in order to make the story relevant. If this was fan driven and an after thought then I actually applaud the writers for doing this because having Elena love Damon only because of the sb would invalidate the whole DE relationship. They had make it real just as the SE love story was real. In the end the purpose was to preserve Elena's character while being able to show both love stories. In the end Elena really did love Damon while she was human and it continued when she was a vampire but the relationship was still toxic, consuming, controlling, co-dependent, dangerous - are there any more unhealthy words the writers used to describe DE? DE was unhealthy even though Elena's love for Damon was real. Had her love not been real it could have been argued that it was the sb's influence that caused the DE relationship to be unhealthy. In terms of breathing fresh air into the series I'm not sure they've accomplished their goal. The triangle is getting tedious. Even most SE fans don't even want them together any more and loved Stefan being away from MF. The problems the writers are facing story wise is that they created such a great presence with The Original family that anything they create now seems to pale in comparison. They just haven't been able to recreate the intensity of s1-3. Shifting the triangle focus won't do that. |
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Post by demetra on Oct 12, 2014 10:00:06 GMT -5
napoli, Andrew55 -- Wonderful posts! napoli, I believe you are so right about all of that. However, it is not just the creation of The Originals that contributed to the frisson of Season Three, it is that Julie Plec was still completely invested in the one series, and Kevin Williamson was, too. Also, Elena was such a solemn, intense character, and the show was shot beautifully and right close up in their faces. Stefan was utterly gorgeous that season. Damon, I'm sorry to say, was wearing a long mullet that curled into a flip at points, not his best look, but apparently Elena loved him. Nonetheless, at least until Ric "died" the show was firing on all cylinders that year. To me, the show still had stakes, then, because Elena was human. You've not been the only one, napoli, speaking to the sire bond's erasure of Stelena, but thank you for making the point again, because I'm finally hearing it. I'm interested to see what happens next week when Elena sees Stefan.
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Post by katvolley13 on Oct 12, 2014 10:48:51 GMT -5
I have an interesting thought regarding the writers and their transition from Stelena to Delena. I think, initially, in the first 2 seasons of the show they had every intention of making Stelena the endgame of the show because they didn't know how long the series would last. Then they got renewed for a 3rd season and had really good ratings and, at that point, knew they were going to be on for as many seasons as they would want to be. They also realized how passionate of a fan base they had in the Delena fans. And they began to realize having Stelena be the main focus and possible endgame would make for a tedious and monotonous narrative. Plus it would hurt the effort of creating huge buzz by connecting with Delena fans. By creating a Delena love story/possible endgame narrative they could breathe fresh air into the series and capitalize on the DE fan base for ratings. And I see no problem with that line of thinking. But they did a terrible job transitioning from SE to DE and it irritated a lot of fans. It also came off as a contrived and fan driven. And I believe they heard the complaints about that in S4. So Julie and Caroline in their divine wisdom *sarcasm* decided that instead of abandoning the DE SL or fixing it, they were going to retcon things to make it seem like it was their plan all along and not fan driven. They want fans to accept it and love the idea of DE not hate it like so many have. So what happened in S5? They introduced the doppel love spell to kind of devalue the SE love story. They also made Damon the hero at the end of the season to make fans sympathize with his character. Then in S6 they retcon the story to make us believe that Elena, not only developed feelings for Damon but fell in love with him in S3. That way it makes the whole 180 they did in early S4 seem like it makes more sense and logical. Now granted this is just a thought that I had and I don't even know if I believe it but it was interesting to think about. If it really was fan driven then it's a horrible way to write a show. I don't believe the DE love story was fan service because then it makes it an after thought for the writers. I believe it was always their intention to have Elena love both brothers just as Katherine did. It also fulfills the theme of history repeating itself which runs throughout the series even if at times it's tedious as Enzo's promise to make Stefan's life miserable as Damon previously promised. The doppel spell did taint the SE when it was first introduced but then it was revealed to be a ruse. Had the doppel spell forced the doppels to be in love then Stefan would have loved Katherine when Elena was with Damon, Elena would have never been able to love Damon and Tom wouldn't have died without loving Elena. The sire bond served a purpose though. It just wasn't the one we thought it did. The sb didn't create Elena's love for Damon but it did erase Elena's love for Stefan. Elena could barely remember her time at the lake house with Stefan while she was there with Damon. The sire bond allowed her love for Damon to heighten and take complete hold while her love for Stefan was minimised. All this was to preserve Elena's character. It would have been much worse if Elena had just changed her mind and switched from one brother to the other. It just wouldn't have made sense especially given how compassionate and caring Elena was. It was also necessary for the writers to have DE's love story be real and begin prior to the sb in order to make the story relevant. If this was fan driven and an after thought then I actually applaud the writers for doing this because having Elena love Damon only because of the sb would invalidate the whole DE relationship. They had make it real just as the SE love story was real. In the end the purpose was to preserve Elena's character while being able to show both love stories. In the end Elena really did love Damon while she was human and it continued when she was a vampire but the relationship was still toxic, consuming, controlling, co-dependent, dangerous - are there any more unhealthy words the writers used to describe DE? DE was unhealthy even though Elena's love for Damon was real. Had her love not been real it could have been argued that it was the sb's influence that caused the DE relationship to be unhealthy. In terms of breathing fresh air into the series I'm not sure they've accomplished their goal. The triangle is getting tedious. Even most SE fans don't even want them together any more and loved Stefan being away from MF. The problems the writers are facing story wise is that they created such a great presence with The Original family that anything they create now seems to pale in comparison. They just haven't been able to recreate the intensity of s1-3. Shifting the triangle focus won't do that. I agree nothing has been as exciting as the originals and they have yet to do anything about it. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using proboards |
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Post by napoli on Oct 12, 2014 21:28:08 GMT -5
no compulsion is not based on reality but since Elena got addicted to Damon (I cannot call this toxic relationship love) she couldn't see reality anymore. She forgot that this is the guy who killed her brother and hurt her friends all the time. She only saw his good side (if there is one) but now with the compulsion she can see what he really is. The guy who killed her brother. I have no problem with Elena loving Damon. It's ok for me if she loves them both. What was not ok for me is that through the sirebond and her addiction to Damon which followed the sirebond she forgot about Stefan and about the real life around her. She forgot about all her friends and could only see and care for Damon anymore. If this is taken away by compulsion and she will care about her friends again I don't care what Alaric did. Of course he altered her memory and clouded Damon's good side but the sirebond and her addiction to Damon did the same thing to Stefan and all her friends. Anyway I doubt this will last. If Stefan comes back he will be furious. Because free will was always the most valuable thing for him. He'll be very angry to know that Elena was compelled Since I don't care about Elena anyway I'm just glad we will not have to endure more sobbing Elena-episodes like the premiere for now I completely get what you're saying but I'm just concerned the writers will just flip Elena back once she's decompelled. Sort of how humanity-less Elena was supposed to see what the sire bond did yet nothing happened once she got her humanity back and the sire bond was broken. I agree that the sire bond phase wasn't based on reality - Stefan's love was erased in less than 48 hours and only Damon's love remained! That's not reality but by the time the sb was broken too much time had passed and those feelings intensified by the sire bond became her new reality and worked to get the story to where they needed it to be. Compulsion may work the same way if it lasts long enough. Once Elena has 'moved on' whether it's spending more time with her studies or meeting someone else, that void she would have had if the memories of loving Damon were still there will be replaced. But if Damon returns in a short time frame and she remembers him then it's DE love story uninterrupted. The only reason I believe they are going this route is to show how differently Elena is handling grief and memories versus when she was human and to show Stefan's reaction to this Damon-less Elena. There's no way that Stefan will go near Elena romantically knowing that she's had Damon's love erased. Of course they will have scenes together but from his side it will be friendship only. |
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Well if you do somehow get a chance to watch it later, let me know what you think. 
