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Post by Ruby on Jul 22, 2013 23:46:11 GMT -5
Also Derek's Tattoo is of a Druid am I correct?
Also Why was Derek at the same place where him and Paige used to make out at/?
I think the fact that Paige died at the sacred druidic sacrificial tree might be important. Will that be the last place whatever sacrifice needs to take place?
I wonder what was Deaullion's Complete vision of peace was...
And i want to know more about the Hale Family, maybe Scott will be the next "Talia" like shapeshifter?
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Post by Slash on Jul 23, 2013 0:01:38 GMT -5
Peter shifts into something more. He's Derek's uncle, Talia's younger brother (?) so it seems like that gen of them got a bit extra. Talia could go full Wolf as an Alpha and Peter is able to turn into the usual human-Wolf bipedal we see in some other series. I'm wondering if the Hale family are descendants of the original cursed family that was helped by the Druids, hence the ability to shift into something more. We don't know much about Derek & Cora's older sister as she was an Alpha but Derek hasn't shown any special Shifter traits yet like his Uncle and Mother =\ Peter turned Scott if I remember correctly (  ) so maybe by bite and Scott's ability to become a True Alpha, he can trigger the trait as well. |
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 0:12:57 GMT -5
Yes Im even more interested in the History of the Hale Family and what exactly does it mean to be born with the Werewolf gene. Does this make them stronger? I know in being Human Wolf with the Gene were considered Purebreed and were able to turn whenever they wanted and were full aware when they turned.
and Yea Peter did turn Scott. He had bit him in the woods.
There also has to be a reason why more then one alpha pack was in Beacon hills back then. Were they just there to meet with Talia? or discuss wolf politics...or was it just because One of Ennis pack members had died.
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Post by Slash on Jul 23, 2013 0:25:48 GMT -5
The last bit of your post kind of all rolls into the same. I'd imagine the Wolves in TW, like in the MT books, have a chain of command that the Alphas answer to even and a standard set of rules (city/area Alpha > Region Alpha > State Alpha > Nation/Country Alpha). Tali was probably in charge of the region/area and since Ennis was wanting to avenge his pack member that could lead to a war with Hunters, he had to run it by her and the other packs in the area cause as was said, Hunters don't recognize packs, just Werewolves. Those neighboring packs would be pulled into the war because of one pack's vendetta.
If true, it raises the question of if the area was investigated by others higher up (if there are any) as to why 4-5 packs, including the Hales, were wiped out/decimated and why one only remained of 5 members. Maybe they just operate by regions/area or things are more complicated with the chain due to the Advisors/Emissaries being attached to Packs as well. Deaton would have had to report the news and that leads to the question of if Morell was assigned to the Alpha pack after the news or if she was carried over from one of the others.
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 0:32:09 GMT -5
Yea Speaking of Morell. Her being the Advisor of the Alpha pack does that kind of put her against her brother since hes advising Scott and Derek? And we still have yet to get any answers regardingt he dark druid and how Lydia Falls into this. What if Lydia was meant to be an advisor and the bit kind of gave her a side affect?
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Post by Slash on Jul 23, 2013 4:00:45 GMT -5
Ok, something that interests me about Ennis' character now that we've seen him present day and in the past: How did he join the Alpha Pack? We saw how enraged he was about one of his own being killed. He was ready to start a war with the Hunters, he was causing a ruckus at the Hospital and told Stiles' dad that the guy who was killed was like family. We had Cora talking about how losing a Pack mate was like losing a limb (Pack is the responsibility of an Alpha and we've seen how Derek has reacted to losing his own). Ennis seemed to place a high value on his own Pack so what drove him down the route to kill the entirety of his 'family'? And if the deaths weigh that much, I'm kind of confused about how an Alpha would will themselves to do so, going against their nature.
I think we may need another flashback of the Alphas forming and how they went about destroying their packs and what enticed each to do as much. Were they really content with killing their own just for a power gain? There has to be more to it. Deucalion was the first to get a glimpse of killing their own (a Beta who was trying to take his role as Alpha since he was injured at the time; classic grab for power) but he was injured at the time and saw some benefit to what he did aside from protecting his title (and he was talking about how he had a 'vision' so maybe those goals made him swallow that pill). What about Ennis (who I explained above), Kali and the Twins? Were they victims of what we're seeing forced on Derek? Join Us/Kill Your Pack or Die? And after doing so, was it just a power rush that put it out of their mind of what they did and how they failed their Pack by instead of protecting them, they sought their destruction for the sole benefit of the individual (which once again, should be conflicting with their 'nature')? 'Power corrupts'?
Ugh, I had something else about Werewolves I wanted to discuss but it has slipped my mind =\ But other than that, I've seen someone mention elsewhere that Peter is no longer an Alpha. I could have sworn he's made comments about him still being one and just not being up to strength (but still showing signs of the abilities such as reading Isaac's memories) so I'm confused on this as well. He did die which lead to Derek becoming an Alpha but Derek was also used in his resurrection so...how would coming back from the dead affect this for him? The reason this was brought up is because as we saw in the last episode, he was able to show his eyes as blue, that he's killed someone innocent (another story or guilt/involvement for what happened to poor Paige?). Is he able to do this when he's not enraged/tapping his Alpha/on his own or is it sort of a badge of shame/emotional reaction to his own memory of what happened that will always be with him?
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 10:30:46 GMT -5
My take on the whole Alpha Pack was that when Deucalion took the life of one of his own which in my opinion he kind of had to in self defense. (his pack member was going to kick him while he was already down and that bit him in the ass) Maybe after he felt the power he received from doing so, he maybe Manipulated the others into doing the same but not before he found out he can actually make an Alpha Pack.
Alpha Packs is not something I have ever seen before yet they did it here and makes you wonder what did it take to create an alpha pack. Just kill your own? Maybe Deucalion did something similar in the sense of what he did with Ennis. He killed him and just fueled the anger of the others to go get revenge. Made One of them feel the power of taking a life and convinced the others and let the power take over.
Now going along the Alpha Twins. Has anyone wondered if maybe they were descendants as well from the first werewolves like the Hales. You have twin brother who when transform them come together to create one big wolf. Not unless they were turned by Deucalion himself because of the twin thing and they became automatic Alphas since it is an alpha pack.
What was it that Gerard was saying about the Mythology of the Lycans and how they received names like Deucalion?
From what I know Peter is definitely no longer an Alpha. When he died he lost the title. The claw trick might just be another gift he has for being a Hale.
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 10:55:06 GMT -5
I also want to know why Peter was so determined to persuade Derek into turning Paige. ;/ Like he's the one that implemented the seed of doubt into Derek about her not wanting him when she found out what he was.
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 11:15:08 GMT -5
I keep going in on thoughts but what if this Paige Girl is related to one of the people we know. I was thinking Lydia but then Paige would have been immune to the bite the way Lydia was.
I remember when Ghost Peter told Lydia he bit her because he knew she was immune to the bite but how did he know this and if he knows this that means he knows what Lydia is and has yet to inform anyone about it.
I also see why Derek just left Jackson when he was rejecting the bite and bleeding black. as in I can't believe this is happening again.
also did anyone catch Peter being a little bitter regarding Talia? When he was like EVERYONE wanted to be on GOOD TERMS WITH HER.
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 11:25:12 GMT -5
Did they say that Peter buried Paige himself?  |
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Post by Slash on Jul 23, 2013 12:14:43 GMT -5
Peter didn't bury her. He said he took her somewhere in the woods where she'd be easily found.
As for the reply to my other posting, I don't think the rules have applied to what happened with Deucalion's Beta in doing him harm. When an Alpha is injured/unfit to lead their Pack, a Beta can challenge for the position. It happens in the MT books although it's a 'formal' challenge in front of the rest of the pack (even True Blood's Wolves had formal challenges towards a Packmaster that would take place in front of the Pack). It seems in Teen Wolf, it's either you trust your Beta or when you're injured, he'll take a crack at you. So, back to the rules, since Deucalion was challenged for his position by his Beta, I think the 'loss of a Pack mate' doesn't come into effect. I wouldn't be surprised if Deucalion just simply baited the next succeeding Beta into challenging for his role and killing them too. Probably a 'loop hole'. As to how he got the others on board, still want to know given Ennis' own attitude. And I think the thing with Ennis being killed is because it's a pack of Alphas, everyone is fair game and the Pack 'bindings' don't play a role. Deucalion kills Ennis, no side effect of him being 'Pack' because he was an 'Alpha' and it was an 'Alpha killing Alpha' which probably just registers as rival Alphas fighting on the supernatural scale, not as a Pack mate. I'm pretty sure the Alpha pack doesn't even work in the traditional sense outside of just calling themselves a 'Pack'. But who knows. Still need a few more details.
In regards to the Twins, I actually wonder if they both challenged their Alpha and killed him at the same time. That way, both became Alphas and since it came from 1 Alpha, they are able to form one entity as a result (shared power so if other Pack mates challenged one, they'd have to challenge both for the position).
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 12:23:44 GMT -5
Peter didn't bury her. He said he took her somewhere in the woods where she'd be easily found. As for the reply to my other posting, I don't think the rules have applied to what happened with Deucalion's Beta in doing him harm. When an Alpha is injured/unfit to lead their Pack, a Beta can challenge for the position. It happens in the MT books although it's a 'formal' challenge in front of the rest of the pack (even True Blood's Wolves had formal challenges towards a Packmaster that would take place in front of the Pack). It seems in Teen Wolf, it's either you trust your Beta or when you're injured, he'll take a crack at you. So, back to the rules, since Deucalion was challenged for his position by his Beta, I think the 'loss of a Pack mate' doesn't come into effect. I wouldn't be surprised if Deucalion just simply baited the next succeeding Beta into challenging for his role and killing them too. Probably a 'loop hole'. As to how he got the others on board, still want to know given Ennis' own attitude. And I think the thing with Ennis being killed is because it's a pack of Alphas, everyone is fair game and the Pack 'bindings' don't play a role. Deucalion kills Ennis, no side effect of him being 'Pack' because he was an 'Alpha' and it was an 'Alpha killing Alpha' which probably just registers as rival Alphas fighting on the supernatural scale, not as a Pack mate. I'm pretty sure the Alpha pack doesn't even work in the traditional sense outside of just calling themselves a 'Pack'. But who knows. Still need a few more details. In regards to the Twins, I actually wonder if they both challenged their Alpha and killed him at the same time. That way, both became Alphas and since it came from 1 Alpha, they are able to form one entity as a result (shared power so if other Pack mates challenged one, they'd have to challenge both for the position). THATS pretty interesting about the Alpha Twins. I kind of hope they eventually elaborate on their transformation to one big Alpha. And thanks for clearing that up about Peter and Paige. some bloggers were confusing me because i didn't hear anything about him burying her. I understand a Beta could challenge their Alpha; I like you have seen it in other stories regarding werewolves. In The Mortal Instruments even lone wolves could challenge an Alpha to take his pack. Maybe Deucalion's pack turned their back on him or tried the same as the other Beta to challenge him and he just picked them off one by one feeling the thrill of the power it gave him. So do you think Deucalion didn't feel the power of taking another Alphas life like Ennis? EDIT: ALSO WAS LAURA (DEREKS OLDER SISTER) THE GIRL IN THE BEGINNING TALKING WITH ALL THE PACKS IN THE FLASHBACK? Some people were implying this and if thats the case she was part of Cali's Pack…wednesday where have you been… you're missing out on the teen wolf discussion lol |
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Post by Slash on Jul 23, 2013 13:07:58 GMT -5
I don't think Teen Wolf packs run as tight a ship as I've seen in other series but really, all we have is Derek's 'shenanigans' as an Alpha and only just now saw multiple packs convening for a council and showing a chain of command to Tali.
And yeah, if I'm remembering MI correctly, it's talked about in the first book, City of Bones. Whatshisname was a lone Wolf and he challenged the city's Pack leader to a fight and won. OT but does MI go any more into Werewolves? MT has a whole system lined out (chain of command with the Alphas, male/females and their positions in the pack, mating/marriage can affect your rank in the pack, human/Wolf act as different entities with their own wills, submissive/dominance making the whole Alpha/ranking system even more in-depth, etc.).
I could see Deucalion probably hunting down his pack if he thought he could get his sight back. If they saw that he wasn't fit to lead them and instead of a 'Pack', decided to walk together and leave him instead of challenging for a new Alpha. Since the bond would probably still be in effect till they found a new Alpha, he probably just hunted them down and assumed their power in the process. I wouldn't be surprised if he journeyed around a bit, playing the 'blind man' to other Packs, challenging their Alphas for the rights to the Pack and after killing them, cleaning house on his new Pack to gain more power. It's a sound plan.
Ennis' death is kind of confusing me. Maybe Ennis was just too much of a liability at that point. He was injured. We know that Scott is Deucalion's intended target and he doesn't need to kill an Alpha to become one so an injured Ennis being defeated by Boyd/Isaac/Cora or even Peter if he isn't one anymore would probably complicate things. To put it simply, Deucalion was probably keeping the Pack as tight as he needed it and motivating them to go after Derek more to put pressure on Scott (cause it's kind of his pack too). However, if he did gain any power, he didn't show any signs of doing so (neither did Derek after killing Boyd). Probably just passive up to a point.
As for Derek's older sister, would have to see pics of her then and at the beginning of the series but I'm sure it'd be a recast anyways unless the girl in the flashback was specifically designated. Peter killed her to become an Alpha but it leaves a lot of questions as to who she killed and what happened to Tali (died in the fire? Went to confront the Hunters and was maybe injured and let Laura kill her to pass on the power? What?).
It'd be weird if Laura was part of Kali's pack, killed her mother to become an Alpha and left Kali's pack before Kali cleaned out the pack, and years later, was killed by Peter who in turn, was killed by Derek.
I think if we had some more info about the transformations of Tali and Peter, I could throw some other theories out there. For instance, if Laura was able to Shift as well, could one say that the power gained from Tali allowed this ability (gained from a long line of Alphas dating pack to the original family that was helped by the Druids if the Hales aren't in fact related themselves)? If Laura did take it from her [Tali], Peter got it (we know he Shifts) and now Derek would have it, just that it isn't tapped or he doesn't know how to use it? What if as a side plan, Deucalion really does want to bring Derek into his pack of Alphas so he can kill Derek and take that Shifter power from him as a bonus to trying to bring Scott in who is a True Alpha which is another special case for him?
That is if he is indeed looking to expand his own power and not looking to build a more well rounded, solid Pack. Either route is a benefit to him: power of a True Alpha (still a mystery to us) + all the power he's currently gained + the Shifter ability; His current power base + Derek if he ever learns to Shift (if he can) + Scott as a True Alpha + the Twins becoming the Super Alpha (Kali isn't really...special).
Might take a look at that final 4 episodes trailer again in a bit to rack my brain.
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Post by Ruby on Jul 23, 2013 15:06:51 GMT -5
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Post by Slash on Jul 24, 2013 11:24:49 GMT -5
Seeing an interesting theory going around about the last episode: the story Peter told about Derek wasn't about Derek, but was about him.
Peter tried to reason that he knew everything cause he was Derek's best friend growing up but...eh. Maybe the innocent death does weigh on him cause it was someone Derek loved and he was responsible for getting Derek to act on it, leading to her death but he did seem overly sad about the whole thing when he revealed his own eyes.
Anyways, going back to S2 when he was in Lydia's mind and younger (might rewatch), we find out he was a basketball player for the school (a star player?). In the flashback, 'Derek' was a basketball player or was pretty good at it. Coincidence? Another nagging thing for me, and others, is that Derek showed no specific reaction to Ennis present day. He knew Ennis was the Alpha back then that attempted to turn Paige so don't you think there would be some hate behind any action present day? This is leading people to believe that it couldn't have been Derek and that the story was actually about Peter & Paige and had Peter been in fighting condition or ran into Ennis face to face, there would have been an exchange of words or more.
I'm going to do another once over come Monday when they show the repeat. I'm interested in this theory now.
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) so maybe by bite and Scott's ability to become a True Alpha, he can trigger the trait as well.
Well if you do somehow get a chance to watch it later, let me know what you think. 
Hope you're doing well. 
