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Post by napoli on May 13, 2015 15:59:53 GMT -5
I've never seen any TVD professional have their photo on twitter showing Stelena. It would be almost as funny if it was. It's more funny with DE because TVD writers have been the ones to show and declare DE to be toxic, codependent, controlling and consuming - these are unhealthy characteristics. To have a professional post a photo encouraging a ship that is unhealthy is an issue now and should always be an issue. Well I guess that depends on what an individual is looking for in a fictional romance, and that will always be subjective. The writers having a bias towards characters and admitting it is more damaging IMO, because it shows in the overall storytelling. (See the Stefan/Damon interactions in the last episode), JB having a picture on his twitter account doesn't. As for encouraging an unhealthy relationship! I find that amusing since the basis is in the supernatural/fantasy. The whole premise is unhealthy, even SE was back in the day. The concept of 166 yr olds charming young women is beyond creepy if we examine it closely enough, that is why those ideals should be suspended when watching a show like this in order to enjoy the drama that is fantastical and the relationships that are completely unlike real life and extraordinary. Unhealthy and abusiveness depicted in fiction should never be overlooked even if the show is based with supernatural elements and promoting a relationship on a show that the writers have firmly established as unhealthy is problematic and should be discussed as being problematic.
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Post by damonsgirl on May 13, 2015 16:24:52 GMT -5
Well I guess that depends on what an individual is looking for in a fictional romance, and that will always be subjective. The writers having a bias towards characters and admitting it is more damaging IMO, because it shows in the overall storytelling. (See the Stefan/Damon interactions in the last episode), JB having a picture on his twitter account doesn't. As for encouraging an unhealthy relationship! I find that amusing since the basis is in the supernatural/fantasy. The whole premise is unhealthy, even SE was back in the day. The concept of 166 yr olds charming young women is beyond creepy if we examine it closely enough, that is why those ideals should be suspended when watching a show like this in order to enjoy the drama that is fantastical and the relationships that are completely unlike real life and extraordinary. Unhealthy and abusiveness depicted in fiction should never be overlooked even if the show is based with supernatural elements and promoting a relationship on a show that the writers have firmly established as unhealthy is problematic and should be discussed as being problematic. I just don't agree with you, because the basis of your argument is rooted in real life values, and I don't view TV that way. If I did, I would never watch or enjoy anything. TV is escapism for me, not a lecture.
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Post by crimmyj on May 13, 2015 16:27:36 GMT -5
I've never seen any TVD professional have their photo on twitter showing Stelena. It would be almost as funny if it was. It's more funny with DE because TVD writers have been the ones to show and declare DE to be toxic, codependent, controlling and consuming - these are unhealthy characteristics. To have a professional post a photo encouraging a ship that is unhealthy is an issue now and should always be an issue. Well I guess that depends on what an individual is looking for in a fictional romance, and that will always be subjective. The writers having a bias towards characters and admitting it is more damaging IMO, because it shows in the overall storytelling. (See the Stefan/Damon interactions in the last episode), JB having a picture on his twitter account doesn't. As for encouraging an unhealthy relationship! I find that amusing since the basis is in the supernatural/fantasy. The whole premise is unhealthy, even SE was back in the day. The concept of 166 yr olds charming young women is beyond creepy if we examine it closely enough, that is why those ideals should be suspended when watching a show like this in order to enjoy the drama that is fantastical and the relationships that are completely unlike real life and extraordinary. I'm sorry but you can't excuse some of the things characters have done because of vampyrism... Being a d*ck is being a d*ck no matter what species you are, a show shouldn't hide behind the supernatural elements to excuse the actions of characters and what they portray. The Buffyverse never did that, Moonlight never did that, I could go on and on about supernatural shows, hell even True Blood would draw the line and pull the plug on the worst relationship. And you can't have it both ways...anytime the show gets called on it any Damon stan tries to make this false equivalence argument that Stelena was unhealthy too and uses just the standard ol you know "because vampires" excuse. That straw man has been lit on fire many times its an invalid argument As for the Butler and his fanboying, yes it is deeply unprofessional, and yes it is deeply unprofessional when Julie does it. You don't see writers and directors on other shows kowtow to the fandom as ridiculously and desperately as this show has and look where it has gotten them? They are like the anti-Shonda Rimes. I don't give a rats arse about ships on this show when the writers can't even bring themselves to write coherent story lines, and any sense of character develop. Right now the exposition is incredibly bad on the show that it has succumb to fan fiction and hashtag campaigns, not only has the ratings declined so drastically but the entire quality of the show right down the to direction, minus Ian's efforts behind that camera he was amazing for his first time. You have major entertainment mags making jokes about the show ("dobrev is leaving a show the audience already left 2 years ago") and talk amongst tv critics that Thursday nights is now CW's weakest link that needs to be fixed by next season. I wonder why that is?
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Post by napoli on May 13, 2015 16:32:51 GMT -5
Unhealthy and abusiveness depicted in fiction should never be overlooked even if the show is based with supernatural elements and promoting a relationship on a show that the writers have firmly established as unhealthy is problematic and should be discussed as being problematic. I just don't agree with you, because the basis of your argument is rooted in real life values, and I don't view TV that way. If I did, I would never watch or enjoy anything. TV is escapism for me, not a lecture. We'll have to disagree on this because I loved TVD so much because I felt connected to it because of how it dealt with the vampires' humanity. It was their struggle for humanity that appealed to me which was rooted in reality. The vampire side of the story would have had no appeal to me if they just went around slaughtering their prey.
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Post by pepitagonzalez on May 13, 2015 16:34:51 GMT -5
He is the absolute worst unrepentant cheerleader for them...there was even an article about him and his perfect ending for TVD on mtv.com somewhere (trust me you dont want to read it). It is incredibly unprofessional ...I follow plenty of shows and never see directors act like such. Plus it shows he has no objectivity about about subject he is supposed to film because he is consumed with making sure Delena's kisses get lit right (he stresses about this on his twitter and considers these moments his proudest moments of directing.) And we wonder why the show has gone downhill with terrible pacing and nonsensical plot points...it is because these are the type of professionals running the show. If Julie Plec is allowed to publicly declare that she loves Stelena, then I'm sure Joshua is allowed to have his fave too. At least JB has no part in writing the scripts. Since "shipping" by the cast and crew has been encouraged from the start, I wonder why it's suddenly an issue now. Damonsgirl, you are spot in your assessment of the bias by the cast and the crew regarding characters and relationships.It's a well known fact that JP also adores Caroline and is not shy in letting those who malign her, that she will not tolerate it. As far as JB sporting a DE scene on his Twitter account.I find that to the epitome of tribute to love and beauty.He has been a major player in creating that beauty and there is no objectivity to be found in that creation.Perfection of a scene is achieved when each individual facet of the work is set in relation to every other individual facet of the work in such a way that harmony between ALL of the facets is achieved.JB rightly prides himself in achieving perfection and he loves to share it. He's an artist objectivity is reserved for judges and juries. I applaud him.
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Post by napoli on May 13, 2015 16:46:50 GMT -5
If Julie Plec is allowed to publicly declare that she loves Stelena, then I'm sure Joshua is allowed to have his fave too. At least JB has no part in writing the scripts. Since "shipping" by the cast and crew has been encouraged from the start, I wonder why it's suddenly an issue now. Damonsgirl, you are spot in your assessment of the bias by the cast and the crew regarding characters and relationships.It's a well known fact that JP also adores Caroline and is not shy in letting those who malign her, that she will not tolerate it. As far as JB sporting a DE scene on his Twitter account.I find that to the epitome of tribute to love and beauty.He has been a major player in creating that beauty and there is no objectivity to be found in that creation.Perfection of a scene is achieved when each individual facet of the work is set in relation to every other individual facet of the work in such a way that harmony between ALL of the facets is achieved.JB rightly prides himself in achieving perfection and he loves to share it. He's an artist objectivity is reserved for judges and juries. I applaud him. JB is a professional who should be called out for supporting an unhealthy (as described by TVD writers toxic, controlling, codependent and consuming) coupling not applauded. It's never okay to ignore problematic relationships even if the show has a supernatural setting.
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Post by crimmyj on May 13, 2015 17:02:39 GMT -5
Unhealthy and abusiveness depicted in fiction should never be overlooked even if the show is based with supernatural elements and promoting a relationship on a show that the writers have firmly established as unhealthy is problematic and should be discussed as being problematic. I just don't agree with you, because the basis of your argument is rooted in real life values, and I don't view TV that way. If I did, I would never watch or enjoy anything. TV is escapism for me, not a lecture. Except that is a weak argument for entertainment. That would just be using vampirism gratuitously with no purpose. Having a storyline or show that has a follow through line or premise that gives characters meaning and purpose is what makes story telling. Characters need to be rooted in something whether they be the antagonist or the protagonist that adds depth of character and a reason to live...growth and a journey. With a backbone throughout that you just have a mess so yes our entertainment has historically been rooted in real life values and is often used allegorical as it has for centuries that is what makes it relatable and why we seek out stories for entertainment. There is a reason why that is, as there is a reason why you don't see shows that are just sex and violence with no repercussions because as you say tv neednt be rooted in real life values. *shakes head* Even the violence, sex, murder in a show like Game of Thrones doesn't use these tools gratuitously, it is used to define character and situations, and that no matter how long there is always consequences to actions. Even in a world like Westeros there exists values, ethics, morality. Once a story looses that underlying coda (whether it be fantasy, supernatural, a procedural cop drama, or sitcom) then it collapses on itself. Also it is damaging to the psyche and seeps into our overall culture (as it has been proven time and again) to show young females victimized and weak female characters. Just like rail thin models in magazines effect female body image. Don't even get me started on the macro/micro aggression of rape culture prevalent on television (Amy Schumer did an excellent spoof on Friday Night Lights regarding this). Yes these things matter, yes they start to seep into underdeveloped brains (the human brain isn't fully developed until roughly the mid 20s) and yes that can cause underlying psychological damage. This isn't new territory, these are things widely discussed in the realms of psychology and sociology. I will never forget Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon talking about the attempted rape scene in season 6 of Buffy, between Buffy and Spike...and how that event rippled out and effected not just those characters but how the other character interacted after that. It wasn't just swept under the rug, or ignored completely because oh hey Spike is hot and a vampire. After that the writers made it a huge point that Buffy and Spikes characters wouldn't get together sexually after that, and nor would the other characters trust him after that, because as Joss and Marti said we have a responsibility to our female viewers to treat that scene with the gravity it deserves and we would be doing our female fans especially our younger fans a great disservice if we allowed a sexual relationship to continue with those characters without explaining anything, we are not going to show a relationship in which sexual abuse would just be tolerated by a female character just because the fans liked them as a couple. A moral responsibility because they didn't want to send a mixed message that that sort of behavior is or should be acceptable. Because yes, in a show about vampires and the supernatural there are still lines you don't cross because you still have to take into account what you are showing your viewers. There has to be consequences and actions regardless of the fantasy. And yes these images do matter to the human brain, entertainment or not, as has been scientifically proven time and again.
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Post by pulllingmypigtails on May 13, 2015 17:41:04 GMT -5
I just don't agree with you, because the basis of your argument is rooted in real life values, and I don't view TV that way. If I did, I would never watch or enjoy anything. TV is escapism for me, not a lecture. Except that is a weak argument for entertainment. That would just be using vampirism gratuitously with no purpose. Having a storyline or show that has a follow through line or premise that gives characters meaning and purpose is what makes story telling. Characters need to be rooted in something whether they be the antagonist or the protagonist that adds depth of character and a reason to live...growth and a journey. With a backbone throughout that you just have a mess so yes our entertainment has historically been rooted in real life values and is often used allegorical as it has for centuries that is what makes it relatable and why we seek out stories for entertainment. There is a reason why that is, as there is a reason why you don't see shows that are just sex and violence with no repercussions because as you say tv neednt be rooted in real life values. *shakes head* Even the violence, sex, murder in a show like Game of Thrones doesn't use these tools gratuitously, it is used to define character and situations, and that no matter how long there is always consequences to actions. Even in a world like Westeros there exists values, ethics, morality. Once a story looses that underlying coda (whether it be fantasy, supernatural, a procedural cop drama, or sitcom) then it collapses on itself. Also it is damaging to the psyche and seeps into our overall culture (as it has been proven time and again) to show young females victimized and weak female characters. Just like rail thin models in magazines effect female body image. Don't even get me started on the macro/micro aggression of rape culture prevalent on television (Amy Schumer did an excellent spoof on Friday Night Lights regarding this). Yes these things matter, yes they start to seep into underdeveloped brains (the human brain isn't fully developed until roughly the mid 20s) and yes that can cause underlying psychological damage. This isn't new territory, these are things widely discussed in the realms of psychology and sociology. I will never forget Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon talking about the attempted rape scene in season 6 of Buffy, between Buffy and Spike...and how that event rippled out and effected not just those characters but how the other character interacted after that. It wasn't just swept under the rug, or ignored completely because oh hey Spike is hot and a vampire. After that the writers made it a huge point that Buffy and Spikes characters wouldn't get together sexually after that, and nor would the other characters trust him after that, because as Joss and Marti said we have a responsibility to our female viewers to treat that scene with the gravity it deserves and we would be doing our female fans especially our younger fans a great disservice if we allowed a sexual relationship to continue with those characters without explaining anything, we are not going to show a relationship in which sexual abuse would just be tolerated by a female character just because the fans liked them as a couple. A moral responsibility because they didn't want to send a mixed message that that sort of behavior is or should be acceptable. Because yes, in a show about vampires and the supernatural there are still lines you don't cross because you still have to take into account what you are showing your viewers. There has to be consequences and actions regardless of the fantasy. And yes these images do matter to the human brain, entertainment or not, as has been scientifically proven time and again. Interesting convo. This moral responsibility and mixed message applies to the concept of murder also, does it not? Ever forgiven a character who committed cold-blooded murder? Ever let him be in a love relationship following without objection? I would assume murderous tendencies hurt women and influence girls. Murder has become acceptable in this show without a second glance. Broad brush. *See Steroline
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Post by damonsgirl on May 13, 2015 17:53:52 GMT -5
Damonsgirl, you are spot in your assessment of the bias by the cast and the crew regarding characters and relationships.It's a well known fact that JP also adores Caroline and is not shy in letting those who malign her, that she will not tolerate it. As far as JB sporting a DE scene on his Twitter account.I find that to the epitome of tribute to love and beauty.He has been a major player in creating that beauty and there is no objectivity to be found in that creation.Perfection of a scene is achieved when each individual facet of the work is set in relation to every other individual facet of the work in such a way that harmony between ALL of the facets is achieved.JB rightly prides himself in achieving perfection and he loves to share it. He's an artist objectivity is reserved for judges and juries. I applaud him. JB is a professional who should be called out for supporting an unhealthy (as described by TVD writers toxic, controlling, codependent and consuming) coupling not applauded. It's never okay to ignore problematic relationships even if the show has a supernatural setting.
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Post by damonsgirl on May 13, 2015 18:38:54 GMT -5
Except that is a weak argument for entertainment. That would just be using vampirism gratuitously with no purpose. Having a storyline or show that has a follow through line or premise that gives characters meaning and purpose is what makes story telling. Characters need to be rooted in something whether they be the antagonist or the protagonist that adds depth of character and a reason to live...growth and a journey. With a backbone throughout that you just have a mess so yes our entertainment has historically been rooted in real life values and is often used allegorical as it has for centuries that is what makes it relatable and why we seek out stories for entertainment. There is a reason why that is, as there is a reason why you don't see shows that are just sex and violence with no repercussions because as you say tv neednt be rooted in real life values. *shakes head* Even the violence, sex, murder in a show like Game of Thrones doesn't use these tools gratuitously, it is used to define character and situations, and that no matter how long there is always consequences to actions. Even in a world like Westeros there exists values, ethics, morality. Once a story looses that underlying coda (whether it be fantasy, supernatural, a procedural cop drama, or sitcom) then it collapses on itself. Also it is damaging to the psyche and seeps into our overall culture (as it has been proven time and again) to show young females victimized and weak female characters. Just like rail thin models in magazines effect female body image. Don't even get me started on the macro/micro aggression of rape culture prevalent on television (Amy Schumer did an excellent spoof on Friday Night Lights regarding this). Yes these things matter, yes they start to seep into underdeveloped brains (the human brain isn't fully developed until roughly the mid 20s) and yes that can cause underlying psychological damage. This isn't new territory, these are things widely discussed in the realms of psychology and sociology. I will never forget Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon talking about the attempted rape scene in season 6 of Buffy, between Buffy and Spike...and how that event rippled out and effected not just those characters but how the other character interacted after that. It wasn't just swept under the rug, or ignored completely because oh hey Spike is hot and a vampire. After that the writers made it a huge point that Buffy and Spikes characters wouldn't get together sexually after that, and nor would the other characters trust him after that, because as Joss and Marti said we have a responsibility to our female viewers to treat that scene with the gravity it deserves and we would be doing our female fans especially our younger fans a great disservice if we allowed a sexual relationship to continue with those characters without explaining anything, we are not going to show a relationship in which sexual abuse would just be tolerated by a female character just because the fans liked them as a couple. A moral responsibility because they didn't want to send a mixed message that that sort of behavior is or should be acceptable. Because yes, in a show about vampires and the supernatural there are still lines you don't cross because you still have to take into account what you are showing your viewers. There has to be consequences and actions regardless of the fantasy. And yes these images do matter to the human brain, entertainment or not, as has been scientifically proven time and again. Interesting convo. This moral responsibility and mixed message applies to the concept of murder also, does it not? Ever forgiven a character who committed cold-blooded murder? Ever let him be in a love relationship following without objection? I would assume murderous tendencies hurt women and influence girls. Murder has become acceptable in this show without a second glance. Broad brush. *See Steroline I get it, pmpt. This is selective morality in action. It is rife among the fandom, and such themes are only ever applied to Damon and/or DE. If we hold certain characters feet to the fire then we have apply the same criticism to all. If we are to expect TVD to uphold this notion of morality and lecturing mentality, then we should expect to see consequences for ALL atrocities performed on the show. The whole crux of the show's narrative, is that none of them deserve to take the high ground. Each and everyone of them has been shown to do do what it takes (murder), to save the person/people they love the most. DE are no different. DE is problematic, just like the best love stories are, and their problems have not been ignored, rather the opposite. They have been highlighted to annoying levels of ridiculousness that has seen fans leaving in droves, so far from ignoring them, they have been focused on, and addressed and overcome, like all the best love stories do.
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Post by crimmyj on May 13, 2015 18:53:10 GMT -5
Except that is a weak argument for entertainment. That would just be using vampirism gratuitously with no purpose. Having a storyline or show that has a follow through line or premise that gives characters meaning and purpose is what makes story telling. Characters need to be rooted in something whether they be the antagonist or the protagonist that adds depth of character and a reason to live...growth and a journey. With a backbone throughout that you just have a mess so yes our entertainment has historically been rooted in real life values and is often used allegorical as it has for centuries that is what makes it relatable and why we seek out stories for entertainment. There is a reason why that is, as there is a reason why you don't see shows that are just sex and violence with no repercussions because as you say tv neednt be rooted in real life values. *shakes head* Even the violence, sex, murder in a show like Game of Thrones doesn't use these tools gratuitously, it is used to define character and situations, and that no matter how long there is always consequences to actions. Even in a world like Westeros there exists values, ethics, morality. Once a story looses that underlying coda (whether it be fantasy, supernatural, a procedural cop drama, or sitcom) then it collapses on itself. Also it is damaging to the psyche and seeps into our overall culture (as it has been proven time and again) to show young females victimized and weak female characters. Just like rail thin models in magazines effect female body image. Don't even get me started on the macro/micro aggression of rape culture prevalent on television (Amy Schumer did an excellent spoof on Friday Night Lights regarding this). Yes these things matter, yes they start to seep into underdeveloped brains (the human brain isn't fully developed until roughly the mid 20s) and yes that can cause underlying psychological damage. This isn't new territory, these are things widely discussed in the realms of psychology and sociology. I will never forget Joss Whedon and Marti Noxon talking about the attempted rape scene in season 6 of Buffy, between Buffy and Spike...and how that event rippled out and effected not just those characters but how the other character interacted after that. It wasn't just swept under the rug, or ignored completely because oh hey Spike is hot and a vampire. After that the writers made it a huge point that Buffy and Spikes characters wouldn't get together sexually after that, and nor would the other characters trust him after that, because as Joss and Marti said we have a responsibility to our female viewers to treat that scene with the gravity it deserves and we would be doing our female fans especially our younger fans a great disservice if we allowed a sexual relationship to continue with those characters without explaining anything, we are not going to show a relationship in which sexual abuse would just be tolerated by a female character just because the fans liked them as a couple. A moral responsibility because they didn't want to send a mixed message that that sort of behavior is or should be acceptable. Because yes, in a show about vampires and the supernatural there are still lines you don't cross because you still have to take into account what you are showing your viewers. There has to be consequences and actions regardless of the fantasy. And yes these images do matter to the human brain, entertainment or not, as has been scientifically proven time and again. Interesting convo. This moral responsibility and mixed message applies to the concept of murder also, does it not? Ever forgiven a character who committed cold-blooded murder? Ever let him be in a love relationship following without objection? I would assume murderous tendencies hurt women and influence girls. Murder has become acceptable in this show without a second glance. Broad brush. *See Steroline First of all you just set up a strawman argument. Secondly, if we are going to tackle the psychology of the cultural influences damaging to female via tv, movies, music, etc I think we can stick with the issue at hand...your strawman logical fallacy of throwing murder clouds the issue of what is being addressed, mistreatment of women. Do we live in a culture where murder is on the rise? No, because as humans we have established that murder regardless of the setting is a moral issue in which we all can agree. Sexual abuses and rape culture is a large problem because there is seemingly still a huge gray area in which people can't seem to see eye to eye of what is acceptable and unacceptable. We have grown men that find it both acceptable and hilarious to yell out "fhitp" (aint typing that one out) or the fact we still have women who defend the actions of Chris Brown, or major sports still have issue with what to do with athletes accused of sexual abuses and domestic violence, how rape is reported on college campuses, that 1 in 3 women in the armed services is sexually abused. That among our youth there still needs to be explanation of how to treat women, when no means no, etc (seriously watch Amy Schumers parody of friday night lights and the tackling of rape culture) There is a disconnect of how women should be treated in regards to relationships, etc. Do we need tv shows that muddy that gray area any further by sending a message to young females that sexual abuse is ok as long as its your boyfriend, or as long as they love you, as long as they are attractive, as long as they are sorry afterwards. That controlling relationships are healthy and should be something to strive for? I don;t see very many people on twitter hashtaging #lifegoals when they see a character murder someone, why? Because as a society we have established that murder is wrong. But I do see female on twitters hashtagin #relationshipgoals when they see Delena or Steroline...and that is not a good. Young girls bemoaning the fact they want a boyfriend like Damon is not a precedent this show should want to set. Joss Whedon knew this and treaded carefully on Buffy, he understood the medium has power and you should wield it wisely. Its a dangerous slope to tread because pop culture does seep into the everyday psyche. There is already an established line that tv and ads greatly affect a female's body image. Just like it should come as no surprise that how relationship can be portrayed on young adult shows also can have an affect on how young adults define a relationship, it is staggering the numbers of sexual and domestic abuses in teenage couples. long gone are the days of after school specials that would help shed light that getting abused was not love. But if a guy is good looking enough then why bother? Hell even Ted Bundy got love letters in prison, after all he was a charismatic and good looking man. To steal from Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. It is easy to hide behind the guise of a television show about supernaturals but you have to also be aware of your demographic and the overall message you are sending. You need your target to be clear and concise. Consequences to actions. As a society we have long set the societal norm that murder is morally bankrupt and is punished accordingly, but as a society we send mixed signals on the degradation and mistreatment of females.
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Post by crimmyj on May 13, 2015 19:02:22 GMT -5
Interesting convo. This moral responsibility and mixed message applies to the concept of murder also, does it not? Ever forgiven a character who committed cold-blooded murder? Ever let him be in a love relationship following without objection? I would assume murderous tendencies hurt women and influence girls. Murder has become acceptable in this show without a second glance. Broad brush. *See Steroline I get it, pmpt. This is selective morality in action. It is rife among the fandom, and such themes are only ever applied to Damon and/or DE. If we hold certain characters feet to the fire then we have apply the same criticism to all. If we are to expect TVD to uphold this notion of morality and lecturing mentality, then we should expect to see consequences for ALL atrocities performed on the show. The whole crux of the show's narrative, is that none of them deserve to take the high ground. Each and everyone of them has been shown to do do what it takes (murder), to save the person/people they love the most. DE are no different. DE is problematic, just like the best love stories are, and their problems have not been ignored, rather the opposite. They have been highlighted to annoying levels of ridiculousness that has seen fans leaving in droves, so far from ignoring them, they have been focused on, and addressed and overcome, like all the best love stories do. I wouldn't have a problem with DE if they in anyway actually addressed the continuing problems that they have as a couple but it all gets swept under the rug and logically some of it makes zero sense story wise based on the premise that the writers set up (Especially this season). The fact of the matter is they do not show this couple constructively working through their problems they continue to show them ignoring their problems. There are no repercussions to actions, or any growth. as a pair they have been in stasis for 2 seasons. And that is sad because I felt like in season 3 there was great potential there but then the writers continued to do nothing with it. Any time the took to tackle an issue would just get completely dropped in the next episode with nary a mention. Which I think did Delena as a couple a complete disservice. But then again these writers have no consistency in any story arc and often drop plots or even characters with no rhyme or reason, why would I even think they could properly handle a relationship or character who needs a well written redemptive/atonement arc.
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Post by pulllingmypigtails on May 13, 2015 19:28:39 GMT -5
Interesting convo. This moral responsibility and mixed message applies to the concept of murder also, does it not? Ever forgiven a character who committed cold-blooded murder? Ever let him be in a love relationship following without objection? I would assume murderous tendencies hurt women and influence girls. Murder has become acceptable in this show without a second glance. Broad brush. *See Steroline First of all you just set up a strawman argument. Secondly, if we are going to tackle the psychology of the cultural influences damaging to female via tv, movies, music, etc I think we can stick with the issue at hand...your strawman logical fallacy of throwing murder clouds the issue of what is being addressed, mistreatment of women. Do we live in a culture where murder is on the rise? No, because as humans we have established that murder regardless of the setting is a moral issue in which we all can agree. Sexual abuses and rape culture is a large problem because there is seemingly still a huge gray area in which people can't seem to see eye to eye of what is acceptable and unacceptable. We have grown men that find it both acceptable and hilarious to yell out "fhitp" (aint typing that one out) or the fact we still have women who defend the actions of Chris Brown, or major sports still have issue with what to do with athletes accused of sexual abuses and domestic violence, how rape is reported on college campuses, that 1 in 3 women in the armed services is sexually abused. That among our youth there still needs to be explanation of how to treat women, when no means no, etc (seriously watch Amy Schumers parody of friday night lights and the tackling of rape culture) There is a disconnect of how women should be treated in regards to relationships, etc. Do we need tv shows that muddy that gray area any further by sending a message to young females that sexual abuse is ok as long as its your boyfriend, or as long as they love you, as long as they are attractive, as long as they are sorry afterwards. That controlling relationships are healthy and should be something to strive for? I don;t see very many people on twitter hashtaging #lifegoals when they see a character murder someone, why? Because as a society we have established that murder is wrong. But I do see female on twitters hashtagin #relationshipgoals when they see Delena or Steroline...and that is not a good. Young girls bemoaning the fact they want a boyfriend like Damon is not a precedent this show should want to set. Joss Whedon knew this and treaded carefully on Buffy, he understood the medium has power and you should wield it wisely. Its a dangerous slope to tread because pop culture does seep into the everyday psyche. There is already an established line that tv and ads greatly affect a female's body image. Just like it should come as no surprise that how relationship can be portrayed on young adult shows also can have an affect on how young adults define a relationship, it is staggering the numbers of sexual and domestic abuses in teenage couples. long gone are the days of after school specials that would help shed light that getting abused was not love. But if a guy is good looking enough then why bother? Hell even Ted Bundy got love letters in prison, after all he was a charismatic and good looking man. To steal from Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. It is easy to hide behind the guise of a television show about supernaturals but you have to also be aware of your demographic and the overall message you are sending. You need your target to be clear and concise. Consequences to actions. As a society we have long set the societal norm that murder is morally bankrupt and is punished accordingly, but as a society we send mixed signals on the degradation and mistreatment of females. I don't believe damonsgirl was broaching the topic of rape (please correct me if I am wrong damonsgirl) - she was talking generally about viewing a show depicting murderous vampires and searching for morality (selectively at that) within that very debatable venue. The strawman argument then lies with narrowing it down to one single objection that many view as non-existent in the show and whitewashing the rest of the egregious actions as non-applicable. Damonsgirl, what are you expecting next season. Will it satiate your need for entertainment based on fantasy?
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Post by crimmyj on May 13, 2015 19:42:43 GMT -5
First of all you just set up a strawman argument. Secondly, if we are going to tackle the psychology of the cultural influences damaging to female via tv, movies, music, etc I think we can stick with the issue at hand...your strawman logical fallacy of throwing murder clouds the issue of what is being addressed, mistreatment of women. Do we live in a culture where murder is on the rise? No, because as humans we have established that murder regardless of the setting is a moral issue in which we all can agree. Sexual abuses and rape culture is a large problem because there is seemingly still a huge gray area in which people can't seem to see eye to eye of what is acceptable and unacceptable. We have grown men that find it both acceptable and hilarious to yell out "fhitp" (aint typing that one out) or the fact we still have women who defend the actions of Chris Brown, or major sports still have issue with what to do with athletes accused of sexual abuses and domestic violence, how rape is reported on college campuses, that 1 in 3 women in the armed services is sexually abused. That among our youth there still needs to be explanation of how to treat women, when no means no, etc (seriously watch Amy Schumers parody of friday night lights and the tackling of rape culture) There is a disconnect of how women should be treated in regards to relationships, etc. Do we need tv shows that muddy that gray area any further by sending a message to young females that sexual abuse is ok as long as its your boyfriend, or as long as they love you, as long as they are attractive, as long as they are sorry afterwards. That controlling relationships are healthy and should be something to strive for? I don;t see very many people on twitter hashtaging #lifegoals when they see a character murder someone, why? Because as a society we have established that murder is wrong. But I do see female on twitters hashtagin #relationshipgoals when they see Delena or Steroline...and that is not a good. Young girls bemoaning the fact they want a boyfriend like Damon is not a precedent this show should want to set. Joss Whedon knew this and treaded carefully on Buffy, he understood the medium has power and you should wield it wisely. Its a dangerous slope to tread because pop culture does seep into the everyday psyche. There is already an established line that tv and ads greatly affect a female's body image. Just like it should come as no surprise that how relationship can be portrayed on young adult shows also can have an affect on how young adults define a relationship, it is staggering the numbers of sexual and domestic abuses in teenage couples. long gone are the days of after school specials that would help shed light that getting abused was not love. But if a guy is good looking enough then why bother? Hell even Ted Bundy got love letters in prison, after all he was a charismatic and good looking man. To steal from Spiderman, with great power comes great responsibility. It is easy to hide behind the guise of a television show about supernaturals but you have to also be aware of your demographic and the overall message you are sending. You need your target to be clear and concise. Consequences to actions. As a society we have long set the societal norm that murder is morally bankrupt and is punished accordingly, but as a society we send mixed signals on the degradation and mistreatment of females. I don't believe damonsgirl was broaching the topic of rape (please correct me if I am wrong damonsgirl) - she was talking generally about viewing a show depicting murderous vampires and searching for morality (selectively at that) within that very debatable venue. The strawman argument then lies with narrowing it down to one single objection that many view as non-existent in the show and whitewashing the rest of the egregious actions as non-applicable. Damonsgirl, what are you expecting next season. Will it satiate your need for entertainment based on fantasy? Sexual abuses aren't limited to rape. The mistreatment of female characters isn't limited to sexual abuses. And I addressed the issue of murder vs. the issue of the treatment of women, and why the latter is more the problematic in society when glossed over on television shows, but no one seems to want to address that. There are plenty of shows that can satiate one's need for fantasy without degrading female characters, no?
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Post by damonsgirl on May 14, 2015 12:05:50 GMT -5
Well I guess that depends on what an individual is looking for in a fictional romance, and that will always be subjective. The writers having a bias towards characters and admitting it is more damaging IMO, because it shows in the overall storytelling. (See the Stefan/Damon interactions in the last episode), JB having a picture on his twitter account doesn't. As for encouraging an unhealthy relationship! I find that amusing since the basis is in the supernatural/fantasy. The whole premise is unhealthy, even SE was back in the day. The concept of 166 yr olds charming young women is beyond creepy if we examine it closely enough, that is why those ideals should be suspended when watching a show like this in order to enjoy the drama that is fantastical and the relationships that are completely unlike real life and extraordinary. I'm sorry but you can't excuse some of the things characters have done because of vampyrism... Being a d*ck is being a d*ck no matter what species you are, a show shouldn't hide behind the supernatural elements to excuse the actions of characters and what they portray. The Buffyverse never did that, Moonlight never did that, I could go on and on about supernatural shows, hell even True Blood would draw the line and pull the plug on the worst relationship. And you can't have it both ways...anytime the show gets called on it any Damon stan tries to make this false equivalence argument that Stelena was unhealthy too and uses just the standard ol you know "because vampires" excuse. That straw man has been lit on fire many times its an invalid argument As for the Butler and his fanboying, yes it is deeply unprofessional, and yes it is deeply unprofessional when Julie does it. You don't see writers and directors on other shows kowtow to the fandom as ridiculously and desperately as this show has and look where it has gotten them? They are like the anti-Shonda Rimes. I don't give a rats arse about ships on this show when the writers can't even bring themselves to write coherent story lines, and any sense of character develop. Right now the exposition is incredibly bad on the show that it has succumb to fan fiction and hashtag campaigns, not only has the ratings declined so drastically but the entire quality of the show right down the to direction, minus Ian's efforts behind that camera he was amazing for his first time. You have major entertainment mags making jokes about the show ("dobrev is leaving a show the audience already left 2 years ago") and talk amongst tv critics that Thursday nights is now CW's weakest link that needs to be fixed by next season. I wonder why that is? Stating that someones point is invalid, because you don't agree is drawing the conclusion that you are right, when in fact, the whole point of debate is to examine things from another POV. Why do you deem JP and the rest of them unprofessional for using social media and/or stating their opinions? Who said they have to be impartial? Who made those rules? They are not judges in a courtroom or police officers, nurses teachers etc, who need to be unbiased and impartial, they are making entertainment. They are promoting the show, that is what they do, they have been doing for years, and this is a new avenue for doing just that. JB is entitled to promote his work in anyway he sees fit, that was the point of my post. I don't excuse the characters actions, I accept them within the realms of the norms on THIS show. I couldn't care less about these other shows you are talking about, or this Shonda person, because I haven't watched them or know her.
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