crimmyj: I love when fans of the show rather than working with what is known (ie what is given to us on screen) opt with dealing in assumptions to suit their needs (making up things that happened off screen that wasn't even implied in the scene).
Nice response, crimmyj. Exactly what fabrication are you referring to here. I at no point indicated Stefan compelled Ivy. You are using Kiki’s words, not mine. It was a misinterpretation you are now bringing forward. So, let me say I love it when someone responds to posts without understanding the context or the posts prior.
Ivy wasn't compelled by Stefan, if she was the writers would have included something to signify that she was, they didn't. I mean, hell, Stefan didn't even compel his boss to give him a raise or to stop being a pooptacular boss. Stefan was eating with blood bags.
Yes, as I said, we are all aware of that. Is “pooptacular” a legal term, Esq.?Stefan straight up said he was a vampire, and was met with the incredulous scoff I think most vampires in the TVD world would receive because people do not believe vampires exist, as Ivy didn't believe they existed ergo brushing off the notion. We know from previous seasons that this isn't the sort of revelation that makes humans instantly go, "A vampire you say, please go on, as I remain calm even though you just gave me information that forever alters how I view the world."
Nothing straight up about it. So I am to understand you are laying the onus on human Ivy to ferret out the truth from vampire Stefan’s abrupt statement bereft of substance on the topic? An “incredulous scoff” was enough to waylay his laser-point pure intentions of coming clean? That was cowardly. If he wanted her to know the truth, he would have made her understand in that moment in good faith. Why bring it up like a limp wave and cower away from the subject so quickly?
If you want to paint Stefan's very short relationship with Ivy as filled with deception because he didn't tell her his entire life story and background in the short period of time they were together then the beginnings of ALL RELATIONSHIPS START OFF AS DECEPTIONS. Do we spill everything about ourselves at first sight, at first date? Revealing oneself comes with trust, and that can depend on the individual.
That is overstating and, to use your phrase, intellectually dishonest. Of course we all start relationships doling out snippets of information about ourselves to each other. However, there are major life circumstances that probably should be spoken of prior to taking a relationship to certain levels so that the individual has the option of moving on should they not be able to accept it. Some examples may be a felony criminal record, perhaps being on a child molester registry, maybe a sex change would qualify, and certainly “I’m a vampire…no, look at me – I seriously am a vampire.” would fit right in with full disclosure.
Stefan was simply trying to live a simple human life which was never going to happen because he isn't human. But as a vampire in a human world you can't just live out in the open as you are either. This ain't True Blood, there is no synthetic blood drinks allowing vampires to out themselves among the non-supernaturals. Because of that it creates very guarded personas for vampires because of the risk associated with the world knowing the truth of their existence.
That is true and Stefan would appreciate this smoothing over and assuaging his sense of culpability, but the fact remains that no matter what his vampiric hurdles, his actions remain untenable and speak of a self-centeredness and blatant dishonesty by gaping omission.
You want to create a false equivalency between Damon and Stefan because its the classic canard of building up your chosen character by tearing down another.
I am pondering this as I know it is a common complaint of people who see Stefan as purely a victim of his circumstances who is endlessly trying to rise above. It is true that, given the cards any of these characters have been dealt, functioning at all in the human world would be a stunning accomplishment. I don't need to tear Stefan down to build Damon up. I need to address Stefan and his actions separately.
Stefan and Damon are complex characters in a world in which their existence as vampires automatically make them teetering on the shakiest of moral ground. But who they are and their personalities are quite different even though the story has allowed them both to take turns being both the protagonist or antagonist. The personalities they exhibit are just amplified versions of who they were as humans. Which the show has made pains to portray them as a vampire Cain and Abel.
Damon was an emotional and impulsive human, which put him at odds with his father.
You are breaking your own rule here. Was it emotion and impulsiveness that was the problem here? Do we really know the complete 25 year history between this father and son? Stefan was steadfast, controlled, and honorable, which made him a favorite of his father.
Again, your perception. Others may see Stefan in this carnation as weak-minded, controllable, and lacking the knowledge or curiosity to investigate and discern what honor means, what is worthy of defending. Others may see him as adopting blindly what his authoritarian father wished him to, making him the golden child.
Their father's treatment of each as individuals shaped the vampires that they are and the lives they have lead both as humans and vampires. Were they are alike is their love for each other. There is always going to be a difference between them because their personalities are unique, their experiences of what shaped them are unique. A lot of it is basic psychology, Damon craves the attention and love he never received from his father even if it often means acting out negatively to do so,
Okay. Cool.Stefan craves approval from doing the right thing because of desiring the love he received from the admiration of his father, that a loss of control leaves him confused and alone.
Perhaps the “right thing” is a chameleon in Stefan’s world. Never quite defined because he may have never owned his own parameters; they were set for him and he can’t fathom why his efforts don’t yield results. Thus, he can view his actions through a kinder lens time and time again because of this right thing. Doing the right thing should not require reward, you do the right thing because you are morally sound and not as a means to an end, i.e., the love and admiration of a father, or a lover. There is no altruism in a quest for goodness when that goodness is fraught with ulterior motives. It is therefore a pathological need that drives him and that by default obliterates any virtue that is associated with doing the right thing.
They need each other to heal those wounds because they existed long before the Katherines and Elenas of the world. They were merely catalysts that deepened existing chasms.
And because of those differences in character their reactions and actions can't be compared for who is worst than who. You put them both is similar scenarios and every time they will act as different as the individuals they are. It doesn't make one worse than the other, it makes them different, which makes their intent different.
Damon chose Caroline, because of her close proximity to both Elena and the circle Stefan now socialized in. While Damon's looks and Caroline's own low self esteem issues at that time may have led her to willingly accept sex from Damon, she never willingly accepted being his blood supplier. And once she saw what Damon really was, she was terrified and tried to escape, he physically assaulted her to prevent her from leaving, then fed on her (mind you didn't compel her until AFTER he fed on her at that moment leaving her screaming in fear), then he repeated this as evidenced by marks all over her person in further episodes.
Absolutely true. This was played out in Technicolor before our very eyes. We see Stefan behaving in a similar manner while pursuing girls from farmhouses, etc., on the fly. He also often left them cuddling their heads in their laps. Damon was keeping his feeding in-house so to speak. Yes, Damon was more calculating in satisfying his cravings and Stefan impulsive, riding that seesaw between being a ripper and drinking animal blood. We don’t see Damon struggling with his conscience at this point, but we do further down the road.
After that any sex that occurred is no longer consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to compel her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is taking away her facilities to make her own choices. And he also compels her to spy on and cause rifts between Stefan and Elena.
Let’s say I accept this premise. It only seems to bolster my original point. Damon could have falsely wooed and won Caroline – allowing her to believe he was human. He could have abruptly slipped in that he was a nightwalker and been satisfied that he’d tried. He could have slept with her multiple times and been annoyed she was there in the morning. I maintain those who accept this type of behavior in Stefan would abhor it were Damon the one doing it. That level of compassion is not afforded him. The result would be the same. A girl. Believing she was having a relationship with a man. Opening her body to him in trust. Then discovering she’d been woefully deceived. The “intent” is cold company. “Remorse” is his comfort – not hers. Damon would do it because he is screwed up. Stefan would do it because he is screwed up. Any sex before revealing Stefan was a vampire is not consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to lie to her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is denying her the ability to use her facilities to make her own choices.
To in any way compare that experience between Damon and Caroline to the experience had between Stefan and Ivy is not only a false equivalence but intellectually dishonest.
I disagree. One seems more violent….meaner; but the other is cruel and intensely personal. One wipes the memory from the mind; but the other requires participation seemingly willingly from the woman. I'm not saying overall this makes Stefan better or Damon worse...I am strictly talking about comparing those 2 relationships as remotely equal is genuinely false and dishonest.
I beg to differ.The intention behind both relationship isn't even in the same ballpark. The intent of actions is infinitely important in much of these scenarios. This would be a whole different conversation if Damon's intent with Caroline was just to have a sexual relationship, and she accidentally discovered his vampy secret and his subsequent behavior and compulsion to her was driven by his own fear for his safety and for Caroline's. But his intent was shown as malicious from its onset, as he was intending on using her to do harm to others.
The conversation would be the same. Having sex with someone under false pretenses. That, sir, is malicious.Again, I personally don’t need to tear Stefan down to build Damon up. I see Stefan’s flaws and struggles, and want to forgive him like you do and believe in the sanctity of those good intentions from the self-proclaimed “good brother”. It would have been easier along the way were he not judge and jury to so many others. Intentions. The road to hell and all…. If Damon is malicious, is it possible it comes from a place of intense hurt? If Stefan is propagating lies and deception, it comes from that same place. It also basically results in the same outcome with innocents being horribly hurt in the process and their proprietorship over their personhood stolen. I maintain both brothers are to the stage where they are genuinely trying and mostly succeeding at reining in the call of their species.
Sorry for the lengthiness guys, felt prosecutorial and lawlerly. Do we need a litigation thread?
Double-sorry for the length. It was not my intention to run so long.