TVD 5x04-For Whom the Bell Tolls Episode Roundtable

[Ruby]

Oct 30, 2013 9:49:02 GMT -5 shoe20 said:

Hey napoli......so the dance Thur night....Elena calls Damon "My King"...do you think she will refer to him as "SIRE" too. LMAO
                                                                                                                                                                        

Shoe I think your comment would be better off in the bubble =)

[shoe20]

My Bad...had two windows open and thought I was there. lolol
Ruby, can you move it for me ....don't know how. tks  

[Ruby]

Oct 30, 2013 10:30:55 GMT -5 shoe20 said:

My Bad...had two windows open and thought I was there. lolol 

No worries! Xoxo

[teppy1]

Oct 29, 2013 22:37:50 GMT -5 Anna said:

Oct 29, 2013 10:20:33 GMT -5 Ruby said:

Although I must say I do enjoy Elena this season so far compared to last. I wanted to state Elena knew what would happened if she turned off her emotions. The same way she spoke to Stefan regarding her journey thus far as a Vampire and what she did and how she felt...Stefan did the same thing for her when she first turned. He told her (Ex: How she would feel great for 10 seconds and then would be overcome with guilt.) 

I have a question for you though...You are correct she did not turn off her humanity with the loss of Bonnie (or realizing Bonnie was already Dead) but do you think she would have on her own decided to turn off her emotions with the loss of Jeremy? Because One thing I could say is Elena is one of the strongest people we know with everything she has gone through and has continued to survive. (Stefan told her that from everything she was telling him she went through)

And When has Elena ever hid who she was regarding her Journey? And Are you implying Elena was being fake around Stefan before or the other people she cares for or were you just saying it in general that she uses her journey for motivation?

Anna I guess I am happy Elena told him and not Caroline this time, but they way that it was done was hurtful. It was not much better than him hearing it from someone else. Actually, I take that back, I think it was worse than him hearing from someone else because with the whole memory wipe and since she went down memory lane and was all touchy and then almost kissed him before she tells him. It was just wrong and in my eyes there was nothing positive about it. It seemed self-serving on her part. When I don't think that was her intention she should have thought about what she was doing before she did it.



and the Stefan thing... I don't think he didn't care. I think he seemed appalled by what he was reading, but reading about things you have done is a lot different than remembering. So it almost seemed fake to him. Which is why he seemed more genuine with Caroline and when he said to Elena he scared himself. I do not think he acted out of character given his situation.

teppy1

How was it hurtful? I still dont see it as anything but honesty. If you haven't noticed. Elena is naturally flirty and smiley. Like look at Damon and Elena's first meetings. Elena has always been that way. I don't see it out of character. Not at all. Especially if you look at fun Elena, the Elena without worries. 

The memory trip lane...I felt we could see her age really coming through. I felt it was kinda naive on her part when we saw it wasn't working but she kept insisting they go through it. But that's Elena. She was trying to help him. Trying things that would trigger his memory. Obviously as Elena opens this part up to Stefan she's gonna remember her feelings for him as well. There's this quote

“People change. Feelings change. It doesn’t mean that the love once shared wasn’t true or real. It simply means that sometimes when people grow, they grow apart.”

And I believe this is the exact thing that happened to Elena. 

She told him he was a good boyfriend. That wasn't hurtful. It shows me how much he meant to her. And well to Stefan he probably received a lot of mixed messages from her. And well thats gonna happen when you don't get the full story. It's bound to happen that both parties will misread a moment, because of the different views. Elena probably still thinks the basics of Stefan were still there. And Stefan was just going on the words that have been said to him, but the way he was linking things he doesn't know everything so how can he possibly link everything correctly.  

As for the almost kiss. Elena pulled away. Not once but twice. She pulled away after she told Stefan not to hide. And he pulled her back. And then she pulled away again when he went to kiss her. She didn't lead him on. She told him straight. She didn't say she's with someone. She said she was with Damon. And you know what? There's no good way to tell someone you're with their brother. It's gonna be awkward, its gonna be painful. And while i'm mad at Stefan for the way he acted when he found out, i do get it  because its the way anyone would have reacted. He acted. He didn't think about it. He doesn't know everything.

He thinks he was the saint in that relationship. And it irks me that everyone is trying to tell him he's the good brother, the compassionate one etc...because this is the image that Stefan creates of himself. And its seems very conceited.

The stefan thing.... but he just accepted it. Like with no problems. We didn't see any inner turmoil.

"Did I really do that? Did I kill him? Why did I kill him? Why did I do that?" 

Instead.

"I found out I was a vampire who killed his own father, and yet I don't litter?"

He has no reaction to these things. Nothing. He has either pushed these thoughts a way and said this wasn't true...or he doesn't care that he did do those things.  
Yet he was so quick to react to him being 'betrayed' by Elena and Damon. 

So i don't know what to think anymore. 

I thought it was hurtful because #1 even if Elena is naturally flirty (which I disagree, but that aside) that does not make it right or nice to flirt with her ex in a way where he could develop feelings for her again. Which in the way she was trying to spark his memory she was no doubt trying to get him to remember her and their relationship or she would have taken him other places. That imo was hurtful. #2 she could have told him right off the bat when Stefan was obviously asking why they weren't together anymore. The fact that her and Damon were dating didn't come up then was her hiding it. She could have said she changed and she could have also said that her changing led her into Damon's arms. #3 She did lean into the kiss and stopped herself. Yes Stefan pulled her hand back up BUT she leaned in. . Stefan was merely responding to her actions and VERY mixed messages. I like Elena but this was not her being mature- this was her being immature (imo and that will not change as I am sure your opinion won't change)

I do not know how you can give Elena the benefit of the doubt but not Stefan. I do not think he accepted it. He was trying to fight his ripper edge the whole time. He cared enough not to turn it off and go full on ripper. He did not kill anyone although he needed help by his brother and Caroline or who knows, but he was trying and if he didn't care that he was a ripper and hurt people then he wouldn't care if he still hurt people. He cared, but he was still processing and dealing with the hunger. That's my opinion anyway. I think he showed remorse... the way he left Jesse and total disgust with himself ("I have to go") showed he cared. The fact that he said " I was scared of me." showed he cared. BUT he lost his memories of course he won't be exactly the same person. Your memories and actions mold the person you are and without them you will be different. 

 You said Stefan paints himself as the good brother, but you also said that everyone was telling him he was good brother.... which one? I don't understand.  I do not think Stefan thinks of himself as good EVER. I think that is he why he feels pain all the time because he knows he hurt people. When did he ever paint himself this way? When he was full on ripper with the girl in the forest season 1? and he said "I am the good brother"  he said that to himself and a very bad state of mind. I would hardly call that painting a picture of yourself as good. I think he just chooses actions when he is "himself" that are good in nature so that is how people see him, I do not think that is how he sees himself. I think that line was suppose show Stefan falling apart, it was suppose to show weakness. Not that he thinks he is better than anyone or  conceited. That's just my take though. 

[napoli]

Oct 30, 2013 19:23:19 GMT -5 teppy1 said:

I thought it was hurtful because #1 even if Elena is naturally flirty (which I disagree, but that aside) that does not make it right or nice to flirt with her ex in a way where he could develop feelings for her again. Which in the way she was trying to spark his memory she was no doubt trying to get him to remember her and their relationship or she would have taken him other places. That imo was hurtful. #2 she could have told him right off the bat when Stefan was obviously asking why they weren't together anymore. The fact that her and Damon were dating didn't come up then was her hiding it. She could have said she changed and she could have also said that her changing led her into Damon's arms. #3 She did lean into the kiss and stopped herself. Yes Stefan pulled her hand back up BUT she leaned in. . Stefan was merely responding to her actions and VERY mixed messages. I like Elena but this was not her being mature- this was her being immature (imo and that will not change as I am sure your opinion won't change)

I do not know how you can give Elena the benefit of the doubt but not Stefan. I do not think he accepted it. He was trying to fight his ripper edge the whole time. He cared enough not to turn it off and go full on ripper. He did not kill anyone although he needed help by his brother and Caroline or who knows, but he was trying and if he didn't care that he was a ripper and hurt people then he wouldn't care if he still hurt people. He cared, but he was still processing and dealing with the hunger. That's my opinion anyway. I think he showed remorse... the way he left Jesse and total disgust with himself ("I have to go") showed he cared. The fact that he said " I was scared of me." showed he cared. BUT he lost his memories of course he won't be exactly the same person. Your memories and actions mold the person you are and without them you will be different. 

 You said Stefan paints himself as the good brother, but you also said that everyone was telling him he was good brother.... which one? I don't understand.  I do not think Stefan thinks of himself as good EVER. I think that is he why he feels pain all the time because he knows he hurt people. When did he ever paint himself this way? When he was full on ripper with the girl in the forest season 1? and he said "I am the good brother"  he said that to himself and a very bad state of mind. I would hardly call that painting a picture of yourself as good. I think he just chooses actions when he is "himself" that are good in nature so that is how people see him, I do not think that is how he sees himself. I think that line was suppose show Stefan falling apart, it was suppose to show weakness. Not that he thinks he is better than anyone or  conceited. That's just my take though. 

teppy1 those are great points about Stefan.  It's so interesting that even with his memory loss Stefan has managed to come to the same conclusions as just prior to losing his memory.  Firstly he is still in control of his ripper side.  We saw him control his ripper side while submerged not turning off his humanity and once he emerged he warned the bartender and Tessa to get away from him because he didn't want to hurt them.  Then with Jessie although Caroline stepped in surely if he was the ripper he would've stop to rip some poor soul on the way back 'home' but instead we see him at the boarding house burning his journals because he doesn't want to be the ripper.  Stefan also wanted to get out of DE's way because he doesn't want history repeating and here we had at the end of the episode no memory Stefan, hurt by the lies of the two people who were supposed to be close to him, was also leaving.  The scene with Caroline also showed Stefan's true self coming through.  Even without his memory he recognised that Caroline was hurting and needed a friend and even though he has no memory of her just knowing that they used to be friends was enough for him to offer himself to her for help - beautiful!

[Anna]

Oct 30, 2013 19:23:19 GMT -5 teppy1 said:

I thought it was hurtful because #1 even if Elena is naturally flirty (which I disagree, but that aside) that does not make it right or nice to flirt with her ex in a way where he could develop feelings for her again. Which in the way she was trying to spark his memory she was no doubt trying to get him to remember her and their relationship or she would have taken him other places. That imo was hurtful. #2 she could have told him right off the bat when Stefan was obviously asking why they weren't together anymore. The fact that her and Damon were dating didn't come up then was her hiding it. She could have said she changed and she could have also said that her changing led her into Damon's arms. #3 She did lean into the kiss and stopped herself. Yes Stefan pulled her hand back up BUT she leaned in. . Stefan was merely responding to her actions and VERY mixed messages. I like Elena but this was not her being mature- this was her being immature (imo and that will not change as I am sure your opinion won't change)

I do not know how you can give Elena the benefit of the doubt but not Stefan. I do not think he accepted it. He was trying to fight his ripper edge the whole time. He cared enough not to turn it off and go full on ripper. He did not kill anyone although he needed help by his brother and Caroline or who knows, but he was trying and if he didn't care that he was a ripper and hurt people then he wouldn't care if he still hurt people. He cared, but he was still processing and dealing with the hunger. That's my opinion anyway. I think he showed remorse... the way he left Jesse and total disgust with himself ("I have to go") showed he cared. The fact that he said " I was scared of me." showed he cared. BUT he lost his memories of course he won't be exactly the same person. Your memories and actions mold the person you are and without them you will be different. 

 You said Stefan paints himself as the good brother, but you also said that everyone was telling him he was good brother.... which one? I don't understand.  I do not think Stefan thinks of himself as good EVER. I think that is he why he feels pain all the time because he knows he hurt people. When did he ever paint himself this way? When he was full on ripper with the girl in the forest season 1? and he said "I am the good brother"  he said that to himself and a very bad state of mind. I would hardly call that painting a picture of yourself as good. I think he just chooses actions when he is "himself" that are good in nature so that is how people see him, I do not think that is how he sees himself. I think that line was suppose show Stefan falling apart, it was suppose to show weakness. Not that he thinks he is better than anyone or  conceited. That's just my take though. 

Well I don't think Elena was doing it intentionally to get Stefan to fall in love with her. And yes Elena can be very flirty but in a playful way. Look at the way she acted on the double date with Caroline and Matt. Especially towards Matt. It's the way she acts. It's not her reeling him in. It's just the way she acts. Its her friendly behaviour.
But I do agree she should have known better with the mixed feelings which is why I said it was a very naive moment for her...but Elena is still young despite everything she still has that way of thinking, which is easy to fall back into especially when you're being nostalgic.

She was trying to spark his memory. And where better to start where they first met. Put yourself in Elena's shoes how would you have done it? I think she was trying to be supportive for Stefan and help him. Despite her methods, she was only trying to help. There wasn't an ulterior motive behind it. Which is why I can't believe you guys keep seeing that as a selfish Elena moment, with her trying to make her ex fall in love with her.
And the entire Damon thing...like I said that's always an awkward subject to approach. Yes she didn't tell him straight away. She didn't have to. But when she saw Stefan trying to get with her...she put a stop to it. She told him exactly why he couldn't go there. 

As for Stefan like I said I don't know what to think. I stated what happened. And how he's reacted. But I don't know Stefan well enough to get into his head fully. To see what he's thinking. Which is why I'm confused with his character. 

What I meant to say...was that Stefan has this image of himself from the people that surround him and how they've portrayed him. Like you hear all these good things about you...but then you hear something that contradicts the good things. And So i feel he latched on to the good stuff and because of that it can come up as very conceited. 

I know that the Stefan with memories doesn't always think he's the good brother. And we see that in S3 when he says to Elena "Neither of us are good for you" or whatever he actually says can't remember the exact words.

Yeh...Stefan confuses the hell out of me. If anyone wants to tell me what they thought of Stefan throughout the ep. I'd like to hear it.

Elena's my fave character of course im gonna see things from her side. And i'll understand why she does things the way she does.  But it's harder for me to see things from like Stefan's POV or even other characters like Caroline's because I don't know them as well.

[Ruby]

Anna im going to chime in here =)

My only problem with Elena going down memory lane with Stefan were the moments she was reliving. Not all of them just the last one.

She brought up a key moment to when they first made love. When she first told him that she loved him. This no matter what character.did it I wouldve had a problem with.

Imagine Stefan being with Elena and hes trying to help Katherine to remember and he brings up to her a key moment of their past like making love

SEs wouldnt had heard the end of it.

I was.more upset for Damon. He doesnt deserve that. So no matter what character I wouldve found that part so wrong.

So Stefan tells her right now shes helping him forget his cravings n hunger. BEING with her and this is out of the loop stefan. That in itself shows the impact Elena naturally has on Stefan.

Hes.probably looking at her like.wow I see why I was in love with her or whatever.

She then gets too close caressing his face and they have a moment.

He.doesnt want her to let go so she doesnt restrain herself either. She couldve dropped her hands quickly but now rehashing these old moments between them shes now caught up.

Then all of a.sudden she lands the bomb on him. Im.with your brother.

So stefan is probably like.woah woah woah

Youre taking me down memory lane of our supposed perfect relationship to tell me that you ended up leaving me for my brother.

Confusion frustration anger sinks him triggering his cravings which probably sets him off and he lashes out.

Now.later on hes drunk and hungry
He has a moment with Jessie

Probably testing his restraint since everyone is.telling him he will go off the rails

Then reliving the recent feelings he had through out the day of.both Damon and Elena telling him hes the good brother and hes compassionate and caring etc etc

And to then be like if im all these things how.did I get locked up for three months..loose my.girlfriend who potentially looked like the love of my life to my own brother...now not remembering anything because someone.screwed.with my brain.

Whats the point in being so good or trying to be good if all I have to show for it is nothing.

Then he takes it out on Jessie.

It.reminded me of Damon when he fed on the girl in the rode.

Fighting against his goodness bc why be good if all I feel is pain anyway.