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Post by deb on Oct 22, 2015 4:44:51 GMT -5
THIS IS A DEBATES AREA THREAD PLEASE READ BELOW
lets come together to share our thoughts about tonight's episode!
Lets discuss:
What did you like?
What you did not like?
What was your favorite scene/quote?
What scene was the most shocking to you or caught you off guard?
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Post by Ruby on Oct 22, 2015 18:28:55 GMT -5
Thanks deb for putting this up! i was getting ready to putting it up!
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Post by demetra on Oct 22, 2015 20:27:37 GMT -5
What did I like? a) Stefan's sheer gorgeousity. Thank you, Paul Wesley, for just going with it. Best Stefan visuals in a long, long time. Excellent wardrobe. :) b) The clever plot contrivance behind Valerie "telling" Stefan in the present day. c) Okay -- #Bamonic. d) The surprise of Valerie's secret. e) Oh, all right, Damon looked quite good, too, hardly at all cross-eyed. f) Caroline's new affliction. They can't touch. Good idea.
What did I not like? a) The script. Yadadada. b) The general retcon of the Valerie back story. I mean. PLEASE. If only Katherine was still alive to kick Valerie's ass. c) The way they got rid of Valerie's secret.
Favourite scene / quote? BONNIE: That's necromancy.
What scene was the most shocking to me and caught me off guard? Valerie's secret.
So with all those likes, my score should have been higher than a 3. But while the story points were good, the script was more telling than showing and the dialogue lacked zing. Also -- how dare they give us Stefan's child and then destroy my hopes in the same episode! I know it is to make me despise Julian and set up expectations for when Stefan learns of it, but DID THEY DO IT TO KLAUS'S CHILD? Noooo. Klaus's child gets a new series. It is unfair to the Salvatores! UNFAIR. Of course, we just saw the story from Valerie's point of view. Maybe there's more. I doubt it -- but you never know. :)
Also bit of a missed opportunity. If he/she had been allowed to live, the child would have been the progeny of the first Heretic and a Doppelganger, and -- as it would have obviously had to have turned for Stefan to encounter him/her, likely a Ripper. Putting Stefan in the position of having to face his own child as both a Heretic and a Ripper. Oh well. Signs of Season Seven fatigue? Or Hannah the vampire hunter could have been Stefan's bebe -- which could explain why he wouldn't have exerted the ultimate price on her. Poor little Stefan baby -- I love you and I hardly knew you. <insert crying emoticon here>
ALSO. What if Enzo and Julian were the same character. Then both of them would have had a purpose.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 23, 2015 0:03:21 GMT -5
What did I like? a) Stefan's sheer gorgeousity. Thank you, Paul Wesley, for just going with it. Best Stefan visuals in a long, long time. b) The clever plot contrivance behind Valerie "telling" Stefan in the present day. c) Okay -- #Bamonic. d) The surprise of Valerie's secret. e) Oh, all right, Damon looked quite good, too, hardly at all cross-eyed. What did I not like? a) The script. Yadadada. b) The general recon of the Valerie back story. I mean. PLEASE. If only Katherine was still alive to kick Valerie's ass. c) The way they got rid of Valerie's secret. Favourite scene / quote? BONNIE: That's necromancy. What scene was the most shocking to me and caught me off guard? Valerie's secret. Nailed it. How many damn times can they redo Stefan's history? Its like every season they find new ways to just retcon more things. Clearly no one in the writers room gives a rat's arse to any of the early seasons.
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Post by Ruby on Oct 23, 2015 5:15:50 GMT -5
What did I like? a) Stefan's sheer gorgeousity. Thank you, Paul Wesley, for just going with it. Best Stefan visuals in a long, long time. b) The clever plot contrivance behind Valerie "telling" Stefan in the present day. c) Okay -- #Bamonic. d) The surprise of Valerie's secret. e) Oh, all right, Damon looked quite good, too, hardly at all cross-eyed. What did I not like? a) The script. Yadadada. b) The general recon of the Valerie back story. I mean. PLEASE. If only Katherine was still alive to kick Valerie's ass. c) The way they got rid of Valerie's secret. Favourite scene / quote? BONNIE: That's necromancy. What scene was the most shocking to me and caught me off guard? Valerie's secret. Nailed it. How many damn times can they redo Stefan's history? Its like every season they find new ways to just retcon more things. Clearly no one in the writers room gives a rat's arse to any of the early seasons. They didnt have to make it that she was his first love...they couldve just made it she was his first... But this Julian guy looks like he will be returning and he will be no joke. And im assuming right after her Katherine showed up bc Damon had left the war around the same time and by the time he came back Katherine Pierce was already at the Salvatore mansion. I liked the dynamic trio..haha damon, bonnie and alaric. This season vonnie just looks flawless And not for nothing so does Caroline. Love their hair. I like how they tied when Caroline first saw stefan haha Overall I like the feel of the new episodes. I enjoy the flash forwards in the beginning of the episodes and it was nice to see Tyler which also gets eliminated as Carolines fiance Sent from my SM-G900T using proboards
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Kiki
Team Stefan
Posts: 2,953
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Post by Kiki on Oct 23, 2015 8:56:02 GMT -5
I liked this episode VERY much. Stefan's love for Valerie is tragic. He nearly had a baby like he always dreamed of. Stefan and Valerie was cute but I'm becoming more team Steroline right now. Not wanna ship anything ever again though. Still Steroline makes me feel more... I like the mythology about the stone and the heretic's past. In the final scene Valarie said "I can't let Lily bring Julian back"... Oscar has been searching for him but he could have searched for either a vampire or a dead body. My guess is Julian is dead and Lily wants the Phoenix stone to bring him back to life. Damon is still the old selfish Damon he was all the time. Him killing the heretic got Caroline in danger and it was his job to get her out of there. But the moment Elena comes into play he only minds his own business and forgets completely about Caroline. Tell me about bromance with Stefan. His plan was to get the coffin in exchange for Oscar. If his plan would at least have been coffin & caroline for Oscar. But nope... why think of his brother's lovelife? I think the woman who is after Stefan in future time could be Valerie. He chose Caroline in today's episode and from what I saw of Valerie so far she is not gonna take that well. Also it looks like Caroline will be engaged to Tyler in future times... I wonder how that happenened. And with all the flash forwards I keep thinking is that definite future or can it be changed? Will the present actions have an influence to the time shown in flashforwards? Like can they change the future?
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 23, 2015 9:59:44 GMT -5
Nailed it. How many damn times can they redo Stefan's history? Its like every season they find new ways to just retcon more things. Clearly no one in the writers room gives a rat's arse to any of the early seasons. They didnt have to make it that she was his first love...they couldve just made it she was his first... But this Julian guy looks like he will be returning and he will be no joke. And im assuming right after her Katherine showed up bc Damon had left the war around the same time and by the time he came back Katherine Pierce was already at the Salvatore mansion. I liked the dynamic trio..haha damon, bonnie and alaric. This season vonnie just looks flawless And not for nothing so does Caroline. Love their hair. I like how they tied when Caroline first saw stefan haha Overall I like the feel of the new episodes. I enjoy the flash forwards in the beginning of the episodes and it was nice to see Tyler which also gets eliminated as Carolines fiance Sent from my SM-G900T using proboards Yeah, but of course they had to make a one night stand his first love because they had to completely erase that Stefan's love life has no "true loves" until Caroline. They even managed to wipe out Katherine as being meaningful to Stefan (the entire character background for him in s1) in one line by Caroline about him being compelled so basically it didn't count. Just more devaluing Stefan's entire romantic history. And yes the timeline would suggest that Katherine comes soon after since Damon leaving the war she is already there. And don't even get me started at TVD continual habitual use of violence against women as a back story plot point at their go to. pure tragedy porn. just stop it. Thing that I liked...Tim Kang as Oscar. So far this season aint giving me any Defan build up or closeness. Quite the contrary, Damon didnt even mention using Oscar as a bargaining chip for Caroline's release for the sake of his brother. typical.
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Post by demetra on Oct 23, 2015 22:17:26 GMT -5
That back story on Valerie reminded me a lot of Rosalie's story in Twilight.
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Post by jennifer on Oct 24, 2015 10:11:57 GMT -5
I liked it. Michael Trevino got a cameo! It did appear he and Caroline are engaged Kiki.?? I'm a sucker for flashbacks when it comes to TVD. And I finally have (had?) a favorite heretic in Oscar! It looks like he returns but will it be by the Phoenix stone? I hope not. That thing is bad news and hopefully they won't overuse it. I'm beginning to think you're right about Jo as the hunter demetra, if they revive her with the phoenix stone. My guess is it will revive a dead person but infuse them with evil. I'd prefer a more character-driven arc with Jo, of Alaric letting go, letting her find peace instead of reviving her, much as I loved Jo. The story with Stefan and Valerie was sweet, as was Valerie hiding herself by Stefan on the bench and telling the end of her story. It will have to come out to Stefan at some point, setting up his hatred of Julian presumably, who appears to be the real big baddie of S7. The pregnancy felt forced to me though. The story worked with Valerie running away to be with Stefan - Julian still had something to hold over her head - without writing in the pregnancy. It bothers me that it's the second violent end to a pregnancy. The whole point of TVD in the beginning was about life: Stefan wanted to feel alive and human and Elena, coming back to life herself after her parents' death, helped him become part of a community again. It does look like there will be some exploration of that theme with Jo's story and the phoenix stone in general - when do you cross the line where being alive isn't worth the cost? Bonnie is just plain hot this season, as is Stefan! Like others have said, I like the Bonnie/Alaric/Damon dynamic. Does anyone else think Lily looks like Elena in certain moments?!? With her dark, flat-ironed hair there are times when she turns a certain way or makes a gesture that reminds me of Elena. A little bit of Freud on TVD. i gave this ep. a 4 because I was thoroughly caught up in both story lines and thought they managed to deliver an exposition-heavy episode in clever ways.
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Post by jennifer on Oct 24, 2015 10:21:31 GMT -5
What did I like? a) Stefan's sheer gorgeousity. Thank you, Paul Wesley, for just going with it. Best Stefan visuals in a long, long time. Excellent wardrobe. b) The clever plot contrivance behind Valerie "telling" Stefan in the present day. c) Okay -- #Bamonic. d) The surprise of Valerie's secret. e) Oh, all right, Damon looked quite good, too, hardly at all cross-eyed. f) Caroline's new affliction. They can't touch. Good idea. What did I not like? a) The script. Yadadada. b) The general retcon of the Valerie back story. I mean. PLEASE. If only Katherine was still alive to kick Valerie's ass. c) The way they got rid of Valerie's secret. Favourite scene / quote? BONNIE: That's necromancy. What scene was the most shocking to me and caught me off guard? Valerie's secret. So with all those likes, my score should have been higher than a 3. But while the story points were good, the script was more telling than showing and the dialogue lacked zing. Also -- how dare they give us Stefan's child and then destroy my hopes in the same episode! I know it is to make me despise Julian and set up expectations for when Stefan learns of it, but DID THEY DO IT TO KLAUS'S CHILD? Noooo. Klaus's child gets a new series. It is unfair to the Salvatores! UNFAIR. Of course, we just saw the story from Valerie's point of view. Maybe there's more. I doubt it -- but you never know. Also bit of a missed opportunity. If he/she had been allowed to live, the child would have been the progeny of the first Heretic and a Doppelganger, and -- as it would have obviously had to have turned for Stefan to encounter him/her, likely a Ripper. Putting Stefan in the position of having to face his own child as both a Heretic and a Ripper. Oh well. Signs of Season Seven fatigue? Or Hannah the vampire hunter could have been Stefan's bebe -- which could explain why he wouldn't have exerted the ultimate price on her. Poor little Stefan baby -- I love you and I hardly knew you. <insert crying emoticon here>ALSO. What if Enzo and Julian were the same character. Then both of them would have had a purpose. Lol! Now that baby would officially be the most convoluted supernatural character of all time. I've missed some inside joke about Hannah the hunter because I keep seeing her name come up. Que? Is that her moniker around here until we figure out who she is? Poor Stefan, I still hope he'll have a family one day, no matter how unlikely it looks at the moment. Like you said, if KLAUS gets a baby, well, it's simply unfair. Speaking of Stefan and family, I wonder how quickly they'll match up the timeline. If this is the last season, they'd want to have episodes left over to show what everyone's doing in the future, an epilogue of sorts.
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Kiki
Team Stefan
Posts: 2,953
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Post by Kiki on Oct 24, 2015 10:28:53 GMT -5
For me it felt like Tyler and Caroline were engaged but I could be wrong though. I watched it only once. Looks like they will bring Oscar back next episode but I doubt it will work the way they want it to work. Wasn't Valarie's pregnancy the proof for her seducing Stefan? That's what kept her silent about Julian I think. If she would have told what Julian did to her she would have had to tell about having sex with Stefan and I doubt Lily would have approved this. jennifer I like you thought about season 1's storyline. I feel like season 1 was about Stefan and Elena leaving behind her past and become happy again. Now Stefan is kind of happy with Caroline and his past comes up again and in the end he will decide for present time and Caroline instead of history and Valerie. Like he chose Elena over Katherine. But I do like the fact that Valerie seems to be the one girl Stefan had sex with and Damon not.
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Post by jennifer on Oct 24, 2015 10:29:43 GMT -5
I liked this episode VERY much. Stefan's love for Valerie is tragic. He nearly had a baby like he always dreamed of. Stefan and Valerie was cute but I'm becoming more team Steroline right now. Not wanna ship anything ever again though. Still Steroline makes me feel more...I like the mythology about the stone and the heretic's past. In the final scene Valarie said "I can't let Lily bring Julian back"... Oscar has been searching for him but he could have searched for either a vampire or a dead body. My guess is Julian is dead and Lily wants the Phoenix stone to bring him back to life. Damon is still the old selfish Damon he was all the time. Him killing the heretic got Caroline in danger and it was his job to get her out of there. But the moment Elena comes into play he only minds his own business and forgets completely about Caroline. Tell me about bromance with Stefan. His plan was to get the coffin in exchange for Oscar. If his plan would at least have been coffin & caroline for Oscar. But nope... why think of his brother's lovelife? I think the woman who is after Stefan in future time could be Valerie. He chose Caroline in today's episode and from what I saw of Valerie so far she is not gonna take that well. Also it looks like Caroline will be engaged to Tyler in future times... I wonder how that happenened. And with all the flash forwards I keep thinking is that definite future or can it be changed? Will the present actions have an influence to the time shown in flashforwards? Like can they change the future?Steroline makes me feel more, too. Maybe because Valerie is new but more likely for me because they set up the story over the lasts two seasons. It was a little sad when Caroline remembered exactly when she first saw Stefan and Stefan couldn't pull up the same memory. Like you, I'm wary of shipping too much. You make a good point about the future, whether we're seeing the only future possible or if the actions in each episode make a difference to how the future unfolds. The second options sounds more interesting!
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Post by jennifer on Oct 24, 2015 10:42:07 GMT -5
For me it felt like Tyler and Caroline were engaged but I could be wrong though. I watched it only once. Looks like they will bring Oscar back next episode but I doubt it will work the way they want it to work. Wasn't Valarie's pregnancy the proof for her seducing Stefan? That's what kept her silent about Julian I think. If she would have told what Julian did to her she would have had to tell about having sex with Stefan and I doubt Lily would have approved this. jennifer I like you thought about season 1's storyline. I feel like season 1 was about Stefan and Elena leaving behind her past and become happy again. Now Stefan is kind of happy with Caroline and his past comes up again and in the end he will decide for present time and Caroline instead of history and Valerie. Like he chose Elena over Katherine. But I do like the fact that Valerie seems to be the one girl Stefan had sex with and Damon not. LOL, finally Stefan isn't sharing someone with Damon. It could still happen! Good insight about S1, Stefan choosing the present over history. As much as I don't want a triangle again, Valerie's here now, and the show has a penchant for triangles. I need to watch Tyler's scene again because it was ambiguous. I got that he didn't want to be involved with Stefan's crap, whatever it is with the hunter, but tyler obviously knows how to get in touch with Caroline quickly. It all has a teasing feel to it, casting doubt about Caroline's fiancé. The fact that Valerie had sex with Stefan was important, although I got the impression from Julian that Lily would be furious to find out Valerie fell in love with Stefan and was secretly leaving her family to be with him. Like the baby was additional info for Julian to hold against her but what she was already planning was bad enough. That was my take on it.
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Post by demetra on Oct 24, 2015 11:05:45 GMT -5
I liked it. Michael Trevino got a cameo! It did appear he and Caroline are engaged Kiki.?? I'm a sucker for flashbacks when it comes to TVD. And I finally have (had?) a favorite heretic in Oscar! It looks like he returns but will it be by the Phoenix stone? I hope not. That thing is bad news and hopefully they won't overuse it. I'm beginning to think you're right about Jo as the hunter demetra, if they revive her with the phoenix stone. My guess is it will revive a dead person but infuse them with evil. I'd prefer a more character-driven arc with Jo, of Alaric letting go, letting her find peace instead of reviving her, much as I loved Jo. :'( The story with Stefan and Valerie was sweet, as was Valerie hiding herself by Stefan on the bench and telling the end of her story. It will have to come out to Stefan at some point, setting up his hatred of Julian presumably, who appears to be the real big baddie of S7. The pregnancy felt forced to me though. The story worked with Valerie running away to be with Stefan - Julian still had something to hold over her head - without writing in the pregnancy. It bothers me that it's the second violent end to a pregnancy. The whole point of TVD in the beginning was about life: Stefan wanted to feel alive and human and Elena, coming back to life herself after her parents' death, helped him become part of a community again. It does look like there will be some exploration of that theme with Jo's story and the phoenix stone in general - when do you cross the line where being alive isn't worth the cost? Bonnie is just plain hot this season, as is Stefan! Like others have said, I like the Bonnie/Alaric/Damon relationship. Does anyone else think Lily looks like Elena in certain moments?!? With her dark, flat-ironed hair there are times when she turns a certain way or makes a gesture that reminds me of Elena. A little bit of Freud on TVD. ;) i gave this ep. a 4 because I was thoroughly caught up in both story lines and thought they managed to deliver an exposition-heavy episode in clever ways. Many great points, jennifer. In terms of revivification, the pheonix stone could animate the body of the corpse -- as we have seen Ric use it to do -- but the second part perhaps is more dark magic: in order to continue the re-animation, the reincarnate has to actually use/share someone else's soul. Hence the connection with the x-like wound. Or something. Re Hannah the vampire hunter, others posted that she would emerge as a character in Season 7. I don't know if one of the producers said it or if there was a casting call. I think the violent end to the hopeful possibility of both pregnancies is a sign that Season 7 is it? I did not see the connection you made between Lily and Elena -- but what a great observation. Will definitely keep looking for that. Also love that Valerie, Katherine, Caroline and Elena each and all fell for Stefan on first sight. Nonetheless, for a 17-year-old raised by violent, puritanical parents, I still think Stefan got a lot of action -- of course, in the context of most other men -- ie Damon -- being off to war. But now that Stefan is aware of the doppelganger "curse" perhaps he values the women who fall for him for non-magical reasons more highly? Also like the complexity of the note that Stefan was at odds with his father because he perhaps chose not to be at war. Perhaps one of the TVD writers watched the recent re-broadcast of the Civil War documentary series.
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amimi
Team Stefan
Posts: 164
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Post by amimi on Oct 24, 2015 12:25:18 GMT -5
WOOT! For an exposition-heavy episode I think they did a GREAT job. It didn't feel laboured or boring. I think Allowitz directed this one - I'm impressed. The two storylines were equally compelling, although I feel like it's been years since we've had consistent Defan teamwork. Love the Dalaric bromance and Bonnie just adds so much spice to the team. It kind of reminds me of the few times Katherine teamed up with the gang to foil Klaus - remember the road trip she and Damon took with Jeremy in the trunk (3x05)? Tyler!! Great moment. So hope that's not the last we see of him. Agree that giving Valerie a good backstory (especially connected to our heroes) is helping incorporate the heretics in an interesting way. I like the actress, I think she made the character's early innocence and later tragic sadness believable. She has a lovely smile. I liked her chemistry with Stefan. I have high hopes that Julian will be a fearsome villain. They so desperately need to have a real threat again. So who thinks that they're going to use the revelation of Valerie's pregnancy as a way to plant a seed (ugh, pun not really intended) for when Caroline becomes pregnant later this season (did I just spoil that or are you guys aware of the rumour?). Stefan will mourn the loss of his own child and therefore be sympathetic to Caroline being drawn into the revivification plan - a chance for surrogate parenthood for both of them. Tim Kang rocked. They would be crazy not to bring him back from the dead. Damon plays off kooky characters like Oscar so well - think Kai, Silas, Katherine, Enzo, even uncle John. I love how those characters kind of mess with Damon's own sense of mischief, sarcasm and devil-may-care attitude, and make him do a double-take. So fun. I would like to see more exploration of Damon's human life - I feel like we've had a lot of human Stefan (no complaints here though!) and it would be interesting to see Damon pre-Katherine's influence. Perhaps they'll show his interaction with Oscar or even a love interest... or maybe they're avoiding because poor Ian definitely doesn't look as young as he did in S1-2. MEH... The thing that bugged me the most was definitely Stefan's wig. Ugh. So distracting. I liked the backstory but I'm trying to understand why on earth they couldn't have stretched out Valerie and Stefan's "courtship" to at least one more day. They could had a picnic the next day or something. It still would have felt forced but slightly more realistic. Agree that the beating was extreme and continues a very graphic theme of violence against women. Maybe the idea is to justify Jo's babies coming back from the dead for revenge!!! Happy with how this season is going. Enjoying it a lot more than last year at this time. Happy to be back on the boards with you all!
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