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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 20:36:51 GMT -5
The Defan Diaries -
The Place to discuss all things Defan. This is a debates thread so all opinions are welcomed just please be respectful!!! - Ruby
I love the relationship between Klaus and Elijah.
I never liked and still don't like the relationship between Stefan and Damon. I feel Stefan loves Damon more then Damon loves Stefan. If Damon truly loved his brother, he would not have done the things he did through the 170 some odd years that he did. The biggest one of course is taking Elena away from Stefan. I do agree that Elena is somewhat to blame however Damon was always in her face and always talking down about Stefan every chance he got. That is in no way brotherly love.
You are so right! Not brotherly behavior whatsoever. If he was my brother (I have one BTW), we would not be speaking. Especially after the whole Elena affair. Real brothers don't do that sort of thing. Damon should be ashamed of himself. I think Damon does many of these things to Stefan because he's jealous and envious of him. He always have been. Ever since Katherine strolled into town. Stefan was sort of the favorite son and this is just Damon's way of extracting revenge on him. Taking the things he cares about. Katherine choosing Stefan drove him over the edge, and since then their relationship have never been the same.
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Post by Ruby on Jan 20, 2015 21:08:58 GMT -5
I love the relationship between Klaus and Elijah.
I never liked and still don't like the relationship between Stefan and Damon. I feel Stefan loves Damon more then Damon loves Stefan. If Damon truly loved his brother, he would not have done the things he did through the 170 some odd years that he did. The biggest one of course is taking Elena away from Stefan. I do agree that Elena is somewhat to blame however Damon was always in her face and always talking down about Stefan every chance he got. That is in no way brotherly love.
I would have to disagree. I think they have shown that both brothers love each other very much. Has Damon been Selfish is many instances with Stefan…yea but I think when they both have been in danger, they do anything to protect each other. I know the whole Elena thing sucks but I think besides that the both love each other very much
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Post by wondersnevercease on Jan 21, 2015 9:44:42 GMT -5
I love Elijah so much. He and Klaus have a very cool relationship. Damon and Stefan have never been good brothers together. I did not like them from nearly the beginning and I think it’s gotten worse. Damon loves Stefan more like a brother, but Stefan only needs him to complete his identity. If Stefan loved Damon in reality, he would not have done so many things in their long life to Damon. The most damning of course being Stefan turning Damon into a vampire. Literally, serving up a human, making her bleed, and pushing Damon by the back of the neck into hers. I believe Katherine was a bit responsible, but Stefan embraced vampirism after killing his father and set about extolling its virtues and making his brother join him. That is not an example of brotherly love.
If my brother was like Stefan, I would stay as far away from him as I could! Especially after the whole kill my girlfriend thing or the 170 years of putting me down to make himself feel better every chance he got…when he created me…when he turned me. A true brother would never do those things. Stefan should be ashamed of himself.
I think Stefan is painfully envious of Damon. Stefan calls himself the good brother and prides himself on being a friend. He covets that title. But, people call on Damon instead. Damon has forged more friendships than Stefan and that tears Stefan to the core. Even Caroline has pointed out that he only has two friends. Who sits by Liz now – Caroline’s mum? Who sat by Ric when he was in the hospital? Who was loved by Rose and who helped her in the end? Even Jeremy goes to Damon when he truly needs something either on a personal level or a badass level. Bonnie is better friends with Damon. She trusts him and calls on him. Enzo respects and loves Damon in spite of everything they’ve been through. Stefan is jealous and sees it as an encroachment on the tenuous brother bond he has with Damon even though he has torn that very thing down time and time again. It hurts to see flashbacks of Stefan and Damon when they were so unguarded and carefree. They loved each other once. Unfortunately, Stefan has been a tosser for too long for the relationship to be rebuilt. Stefan ripped it all away the day he turned Damon and since then with Stefan’s jealousy and judgmental nature, their relationship has never recovered.
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SalvatoreChick
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Post by SalvatoreChick on Jan 21, 2015 10:16:06 GMT -5
I love Elijah so much. He and Klaus have a very cool relationship. Damon and Stefan have never been good brothers together. I did not like them from nearly the beginning and I think it’s gotten worse. Damon loves Stefan more like a brother, but Stefan only needs him to complete his identity. If Stefan loved Damon in reality, he would not have done so many things in their long life to Damon. The most damning of course being Stefan turning Damon into a vampire. Literally, serving up a human, making her bleed, and pushing Damon by the back of the neck into hers. I believe Katherine was a bit responsible, but Stefan embraced vampirism after killing his father and set about extolling its virtues and making his brother join him. That is not an example of brotherly love. If my brother was like Stefan, I would stay as far away from him as I could! Especially after the whole kill my girlfriend thing or the 170 years of putting me down to make himself feel better every chance he got…when he created me…when he turned me. A true brother would never do those things. Stefan should be ashamed of himself. I think Stefan is painfully envious of Damon. Stefan calls himself the good brother and prides himself on being a friend. He covets that title. But, people call on Damon instead. Damon has forged more friendships than Stefan and that tears Stefan to the core. Even Caroline has pointed out that he only has two friends. Who sits by Liz now – Caroline’s mum? Who sat by Ric when he was in the hospital? Who was loved by Rose and who helped her in the end? Even Jeremy goes to Damon when he truly needs something either on a personal level or a badass level. Bonnie is better friends with Damon. She trusts him and calls on him. Enzo respects and loves Damon in spite of everything they’ve been through. Stefan is jealous and sees it as an encroachment on the tenuous brother bond he has with Damon even though he has torn that very thing down time and time again. It hurts to see flashbacks of Stefan and Damon when they were so unguarded and carefree. They loved each other once. Unfortunately, Stefan has been a tosser for too long for the relationship to be rebuilt. Stefan ripped it all away the day he turned Damon and since then with Stefan’s jealousy and judgmental nature, their relationship has never recovered. With Damon and Stefan, i somewhat agree but also disagree. There are both opinions, thoughts, and arguments (Whichever you choose to say it as) on what was shown with Stefan's gesture of saving Damon's life. Stefan served up that human, yes i can agree by doing this then Damon may have thought Stefan hated him. But you also have to think about it this way, Stefan did this so he could be with his brother forever, Which show's he had some Love in that situation. Fair enough, we wouldn't usually show Love with such things but Stefan thought it was him showing it. Damon didn't see it like this, He had just lost everything he wanted, Katherine, These were the two main reason why he pledged a life of Misery. Stefan did figure out what he did wasn't showing that Love, but what would you have done if your stood there whilst you were full of life and saved and immortal? You couldn't just stand there and see your Brother dying right infront of your eyes. That being said, to the other side, it was selfish of Stefan to not go by his brothers wishes and allow him to choose what fate he wanted. Damon is the go to friend/boyfriend who will act upon the reaction that the "Ask-er" usually wants. Stefan is the go to for a shoulder to cry on really i personally think. You also noticed (as you've already said yourself but in different words), That the rolls between Stefan and Damon have changed since his Klaus and Ripper phase of recent years. As much as Stefan wants to do good, like he thinks he has done for so long, he can't. Really Stefan is changing into the Bad-Boy guy. Damon used to be like this, but that was all driven by the hatred and misery he wanted to put upon Stefans head all those years. Now Damon doesn't need to do that anymore, you see that he's changed. Yes he still has his moments but not as much as before. He takes care of Mystic Fall, his friends, his frienenemies (Sorry if i didn't spell that right), Elena, and even Stefan even if its in his own special way of doing things... (Lexi for example of course) Basically the rolls have changed, but I personally do believe they Love each other, Brother Love, even if it is Sick, Twisted, Abnormal. Just remember every Relationship is different. Well that's my personal thoughts towards it. Nobody is wrong as its their opinion Hope everyone is doing okay today
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Post by Ruby on Jan 21, 2015 10:20:12 GMT -5
I love Elijah so much. He and Klaus have a very cool relationship. Damon and Stefan have never been good brothers together. I did not like them from nearly the beginning and I think it’s gotten worse. Damon loves Stefan more like a brother, but Stefan only needs him to complete his identity. If Stefan loved Damon in reality, he would not have done so many things in their long life to Damon. The most damning of course being Stefan turning Damon into a vampire. Literally, serving up a human, making her bleed, and pushing Damon by the back of the neck into hers. I believe Katherine was a bit responsible, but Stefan embraced vampirism after killing his father and set about extolling its virtues and making his brother join him. That is not an example of brotherly love. If my brother was like Stefan, I would stay as far away from him as I could! Especially after the whole kill my girlfriend thing or the 170 years of putting me down to make himself feel better every chance he got…when he created me…when he turned me. A true brother would never do those things. Stefan should be ashamed of himself. I think Stefan is painfully envious of Damon. Stefan calls himself the good brother and prides himself on being a friend. He covets that title. But, people call on Damon instead. Damon has forged more friendships than Stefan and that tears Stefan to the core. Even Caroline has pointed out that he only has two friends. Who sits by Liz now – Caroline’s mum? Who sat by Ric when he was in the hospital? Who was loved by Rose and who helped her in the end? Even Jeremy goes to Damon when he truly needs something either on a personal level or a badass level. Bonnie is better friends with Damon. She trusts him and calls on him. Enzo respects and loves Damon in spite of everything they’ve been through. Stefan is jealous and sees it as an encroachment on the tenuous brother bond he has with Damon even though he has torn that very thing down time and time again. It hurts to see flashbacks of Stefan and Damon when they were so unguarded and carefree. They loved each other once. Unfortunately, Stefan has been a tosser for too long for the relationship to be rebuilt. Stefan ripped it all away the day he turned Damon and since then with Stefan’s jealousy and judgmental nature, their relationship has never recovered. Again I would have to disagree. You are talking about a character when he turned, was only 17 years old. Who knows who they truly are at 17? You are still growing up. Stefan and Damon both died at the hands of their father and when Stefan took on immortality indirectly, he wanted his brother to be by his side so he would not be alone. If you could choose one person to be with you to share a scary experience who would you choose? Stefan choose his brother and I think that speaks volumes. Was it wrong to force it on him? yes. But Only reason Damon did not want it was because the person he thought of spending his immortality with was Katherine and she was no longer around. Who knows what his outcome would've been if Katherine was not his main motivation. He was willing to let his brother do the journey alone when Stefan thought they could do it together. Even with this decision that Stefan did, he apologized to Damon about it and manned up about it. With the vampirism, it brought on many challenges for them and both put their flaws in the front and center. I'm sorry but kill my girlfriend? Are you talking about Andie? When this show first started, Damon was tormenting Stefan. Killing people left and right trying to make it look as if Stefan was doing it. Within days he killed the coach, attacked Vicky, Killed Uncle Zachariah and had compelled Caroline to be his little puppet. He did it to mess with Stefan. This was Damon with No Humanity. Even now in Season 6 with the flashbacks, you see Damon lashing out and killing the uncle's wife because Stefan hurt his feelings. Stefan trying to make himself the Good brother was because he cared. He showed remorse for the things he did and he truly wanted to be good. Damon does things and never cared for the consequences making him the not so good brother. (I dont identify them as good vs bad anyway) Stefan with NO Humanity still managed to save Damon from Klaus' back up plan in Season 3/4 I never considered Stefan being jealous of Damon. And really the whole friends aspect? Stefan has made friendships with many of the characters. Some closer then others same way Damon has made closer connections then others. Stefan and Bonnie have a bond. He was there for her on numerous occasions. He was the one that broke the news to her regarding Jeremy. Stood by her side while she woke up. Helped her control her magic when she was afraid. Saved her from Damon when he attacked her. Caroline - Stefan took care of caroline while she was being a puppet to damon's plans. Helped her after she became a vampire, where Damon was willing to kill her not to deal with it. Both brothers showed to her rescue when the wolves toook her. Ric and Enzo were older hence them also being closer to Damon who was closer. But Enzo has clearly said hes jealous of Stefan and Ric respects Stefan. Now like I said before both brothers have flaws. They both had made mistakes and have been selfish and impulsive on several occasions but one thing I can say is that both brothers have been there for each other. When the tomb vamps kidnapped Stefan..Damon went for him. Stefan saved his brother from the fire in season 1 and then went on to sacrifice his love for Elena to save his brother from the werewolf bite. my thoughts might be scattered because Im typing this while im at work but i think i got most of it down
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Post by wondersnevercease on Jan 21, 2015 12:02:44 GMT -5
I love Elijah so much. He and Klaus have a very cool relationship. Damon and Stefan have never been good brothers together. I did not like them from nearly the beginning and I think it’s gotten worse. Damon loves Stefan more like a brother, but Stefan only needs him to complete his identity. If Stefan loved Damon in reality, he would not have done so many things in their long life to Damon. The most damning of course being Stefan turning Damon into a vampire. Literally, serving up a human, making her bleed, and pushing Damon by the back of the neck into hers. I believe Katherine was a bit responsible, but Stefan embraced vampirism after killing his father and set about extolling its virtues and making his brother join him. That is not an example of brotherly love. If my brother was like Stefan, I would stay as far away from him as I could! Especially after the whole kill my girlfriend thing or the 170 years of putting me down to make himself feel better every chance he got…when he created me…when he turned me. A true brother would never do those things. Stefan should be ashamed of himself. I think Stefan is painfully envious of Damon. Stefan calls himself the good brother and prides himself on being a friend. He covets that title. But, people call on Damon instead. Damon has forged more friendships than Stefan and that tears Stefan to the core. Even Caroline has pointed out that he only has two friends. Who sits by Liz now – Caroline’s mum? Who sat by Ric when he was in the hospital? Who was loved by Rose and who helped her in the end? Even Jeremy goes to Damon when he truly needs something either on a personal level or a badass level. Bonnie is better friends with Damon. She trusts him and calls on him. Enzo respects and loves Damon in spite of everything they’ve been through. Stefan is jealous and sees it as an encroachment on the tenuous brother bond he has with Damon even though he has torn that very thing down time and time again. It hurts to see flashbacks of Stefan and Damon when they were so unguarded and carefree. They loved each other once. Unfortunately, Stefan has been a tosser for too long for the relationship to be rebuilt. Stefan ripped it all away the day he turned Damon and since then with Stefan’s jealousy and judgmental nature, their relationship has never recovered. Again I would have to disagree. You are talking about a character when he turned, was only 17 years old. Who knows who they truly are at 17? You are still growing up. Stefan and Damon both died at the hands of their father and when Stefan took on immortality indirectly, he wanted his brother to be by his side so he would not be alone. If you could choose one person to be with you to share a scary experience who would you choose? Stefan choose his brother and I think that speaks volumes. Was it wrong to force it on him? yes. But Only reason Damon did not want it was because the person he thought of spending his immortality with was Katherine and she was no longer around. Who knows what his outcome would've been if Katherine was not his main motivation. He was willing to let his brother do the journey alone when Stefan thought they could do it together. Even with this decision that Stefan did, he apologized to Damon about it and manned up about it. With the vampirism, it brought on many challenges for them and both put their flaws in the front and center. I'm sorry but kill my girlfriend? Are you talking about Andie? When this show first started, Damon was tormenting Stefan. Killing people left and right trying to make it look as if Stefan was doing it. Within days he killed the coach, attacked Vicky, Killed Uncle Zachariah and had compelled Caroline to be his little puppet. He did it to mess with Stefan. This was Damon with No Humanity. Even now in Season 6 with the flashbacks, you see Damon lashing out and killing the uncle's wife because Stefan hurt his feelings. Stefan trying to make himself the Good brother was because he cared. He showed remorse for the things he did and he truly wanted to be good. Damon does things and never cared for the consequences making him the not so good brother. (I dont identify them as good vs bad anyway) Stefan with NO Humanity still managed to save Damon from Klaus' back up plan in Season 3/4 I never considered Stefan being jealous of Damon. And really the whole friends aspect? Stefan has made friendships with many of the characters. Some closer then others same way Damon has made closer connections then others. Stefan and Bonnie have a bond. He was there for her on numerous occasions. He was the one that broke the news to her regarding Jeremy. Stood by her side while she woke up. Helped her control her magic when she was afraid. Saved her from Damon when he attacked her. Caroline - Stefan took care of caroline while she was being a puppet to damon's plans. Helped her after she became a vampire, where Damon was willing to kill her not to deal with it. Both brothers showed to her rescue when the wolves toook her. Ric and Enzo were older hence them also being closer to Damon who was closer. But Enzo has clearly said hes jealous of Stefan and Ric respects Stefan. Now like I said before both brothers have flaws. They both had made mistakes and have been selfish and impulsive on several occasions but one thing I can say is that both brothers have been there for each other. When the tomb vamps kidnapped Stefan..Damon went for him. Stefan saved his brother from the fire in season 1 and then went on to sacrifice his love for Elena to save his brother from the werewolf bite. my thoughts might be scattered because Im typing this while im at work but i think i got most of it down Thanks Ruby for your thoughts. I've read your views and respect you as an intelligent thoughtful poster. It does seem, however, that every pro-Damon post here gets tomes of dissent when a similar anti-Damon post or purposeful provication gets a "mweh"....
To speak to the brother bond. That seems to be the problem. Stefan hasn't changed in those 170 plus years, unless the past couple of episodes truly stick in his self-awareness. He still makes selfish decisions and calls it "love". To bind your brother to a lifelong journey of vampirism without his consent - there is no defense of that. Had Damon turned Stefan, no one here would be defending him. There would be no docile acceptance of Damon's apology. It would be an ongoing topic. Particularly if Damon said he'd done it so he didn't have to be alone. It would not be a thing of the past. Yes, Damon set out to make Stefan miserable in Seasons 1 & 2, just as Stefan has defamed Damon time and time again to his face and to anyone who would listen up until just recently and also has taken actions that made Damon miserable. Neither has the high road there.
So much angst is directed at Damon based on seasons 1 & 2. That is generally the go-to fallback position and no one cites that was in the past. The flashbacks are just that. Flashbacks. Not something Damon did currently. Stefan has killed currently, as has Damon, and both felt these killings were justified in some way. In lieu of the fact both vampires have killed willy nilly, I count people close to them as the worst collateral damage. Sure, Uncle Zach counts. But were it Stefan being dessicated in the basement, I think his followers would cry foul that Stefan was horribly starved and not in his right mind. Damon had many an opportunity to kill Zach without provocation and did not. (Again, that was very early in the show.) On a brother-bond level, even Lexi was killed with a larger purpose to make the general populous and Liz believe that the vampire problem was taken care of. Not cool, but not calculated to hurt Stefan. Stefan killed Andie to hurt Damon and send his brother a message...his brother who was at the moment trying to save him BTW.
The show depicts Damon as verbally decrying his emotions or regret in his self-protective way, but also shows him in his quiet moments admitting what truly is in his heart. That echoes what Stefan has said openly about his own regrets or remorse. Stefan wears it on his sleeve - gets kudos and support for it which he obviously internalizes and hence deems himself "the good brother". Damon, while shown to feel remorse and actually paying restitution as he evolves over the seasons, deals with it in a personal fashion - discussing it only privately in his most introspective moments.
I agree with you that it is crazy to identify either brother as good or bad, but the character of Stefan creates this discussion time after time with his obsession to be just that "I'm the good brother..." I question his motivation more than you do. I don't see it as pure, I see it as part of his illness and blindness. To give Stefan this breadth of understanding, one has to extend the same breadth to Damon - a man who simply deals differently with the same issues. To say Stefan is better because he cares and Damon is worse because he doesn't is horribly simplistic IMO and a reflection on not understanding the depth of this character. Both vampires enjoy it in their vampiric state and have serious regrets when faced again with their humanity. Damon doesn't wear it on his sleeve, he internalizes it but feels it. He is cocky and doesn't share this with the world at large and may say flippant things regarding his actions, but is shown to privately suffer and have true remorse that transfers into action. Stefan broadcasts his regret, and the soothing of everyone around him helps him bury his actions. Neither "likes" what they do in their vampiric state. Neither "enjoys" it when they are not overcome with their killer urges and find themselves faced with what they have done. So brothers they are. Perhaps they do love in their limited way, but they are not healthy for each other by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree that when push comes to shove both brothers are usually there for each other w/exception of a few notable occasions. They've saved each other many times and rescued the others more than I care to count. It is arguable that they do it because they care, they don't simply do it to win the girl or the affection of others. Only one brother seems to get any credit, however. Season 1 &2 Damon lives on with intolerance and a blind eye to his growth. Seasons 1-6 Stefan is absolved no matter what with a thin acknowledgement here and there that both brothers have issues.
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Post by Ruby on Jan 21, 2015 22:42:44 GMT -5
@wondersnevercease12 I have no problem with having a nice discussion with anyone. I actually enjoy Damon's character very much and I am ok with him flaws and all but I take some offense to the comment above. The reason I do is because you say that every "pro-Damon" post gets tomes of dissent but why is it a pro-Damon post is usually covered with anti-stefan? Thats what I can never understand with many posters. Pro Damon and Pro Stefan there always has to be some sort of battle between brothers in a way. I've been a fan of the show since the pilot episode. I believe both brothers have actually come a long way in the past 170 years so I would have to respectfully disagree that Stefan has not changed throughout the years. I believe both brothers have come a long way. I used examples of Season 1 and 2 Damon just because this is when he was considered the villain and he was there to torment Stefan for the hell of it while he had his rescue mission to save Katherine. Which we have also seen season after season, our own mystic falls gang has played in the "do what it takes" to accomplish something, even if its killing people, or doing selfish acts. Thats why one of my favorite quotes on TVD history was when Rebekah told Stefan off regarding/justifying why she decided to kill Elena. Saying that everyone judges her for killing Elena but no one looks at Elena for killing Kol… I don't remember it exactly but you catch my drift. I believe a lot of the flaws of the characters have to do with the writing process of the show itself. In the later seasons, I also think they have gone astray with the whole good brother vs bad brother. Both Stefan and Damon are anti heroes to me. I believe the characters of the show consider Stefan good and Damon bad because, Damon just took on the role. He didn't care what he had to do to get things done. Even now, he does things knowing it will upset the people he cares about the most but does them anyway. (Example: Compelling Alaric) The difference between Damon and Stefan is that Damon embraced the vampirism and learn how to control it for his advantage without caring if his humanity was in the picture. Stefan embraced vampirism and realized it was far from his control so he fought for many years to keep the darkness hidden and hold on to humanity as much as possible. but again I feel they both have been able to embrace both sides. the vampirism and the humanity and make it work. I have more thoughts but you did write a lot lol and you made a lot of good points so hopefully tomorrow I can get to them. Also this is a pro Defan thread, So Im going to move our comments to the official debating thread and we can keep discussing there <3
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Post by crimmyj on Jan 22, 2015 0:21:37 GMT -5
as most of you know Defan is my true endgame for this series, and that is all I have to say about that.
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Post by Ruby on Jan 22, 2015 5:57:11 GMT -5
as most of you know Defan is my true endgame for this series, and that is all I have to say about that. I would be happy if that was the result of the series Sent from my SM-G900T using proboards
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Post by wondersnevercease on Jan 22, 2015 6:54:37 GMT -5
@wondersnevercease12 I have no problem with having a nice discussion with anyone. I actually enjoy Damon's character very much and I am ok with him flaws and all but I take some offense to the comment above. The reason I do is because you say that every "pro-Damon" post gets tomes of dissent but why is it a pro-Damon post is usually covered with anti-stefan? Thats what I can never understand with many posters. Pro Damon and Pro Stefan there always has to be some sort of battle between brothers in a way. Thanks, Ruby. It is true what you say, but not necessarily reflective of Damon posts only. By sheer volume there are more posts regarding Stefan that stand on their own merit of enjoying him as a character, but there are many dotted with anti-Damon sentiment as their basis. I guess that is the nature of the beast. Then, depending on your personal bent – it feels more acceptable to let one stand and the other not.I've been a fan of the show since the pilot episode. I believe both brothers have actually come a long way in the past 170 years so I would have to respectfully disagree that Stefan has not changed throughout the years. I believe both brothers have come a long way. Yes, perhaps I overstated if that is viewed as a generalization there. However, specifically to the brother bond, I speak to his ongoing misconception that placing Damon as Devil One doesn’t absolve his own behavior. The hypocrisy has always been glaring.
“Stefan trying to make himself the Good brother was because he cared. He showed remorse for the things he did and he truly wanted to be good. Damon does things and never cared for the consequences making him the not so good brother.”
This is an example of what I mean. This is in current tense that Damon “does” things and “never” cared for the consequences. The evidence, again, harkens back to the earliest incarnation of Damon and flashbacks are treated like current events. Damon has been shown to deeply care about the consequences. I will agree with impulsiveness and acting on instinct, but I disagree with apathy and lack of ownership of his deeds.I used examples of Season 1 and 2 Damon just because this is when he was considered the villain and he was there to torment Stefan for the hell of it while he had his rescue mission to save Katherine. Which we have also seen season after season, our own mystic falls gang has played in the "do what it takes" to accomplish something, even if its killing people, or doing selfish acts. When has Damon stopped being considered the villain by so many detractors? Nothing he has done on a positive note is considered viable while everything negative Stefan does is considered considerately with a proverbial There, there now. We know why you are misbehaving, darling. If Damon is viewed eternally through the lens of his early actions in the series, then it makes sense the infraction of turning his brother must also be dragged behind Stefan through the seasons.
“He was willing to let his brother do the journey alone when Stefan thought they could do it together.”
While I agree with a lot of your post, this is a prime example. So the rose-colored glasses approach on Stefan’s behalf is it would have been nice of Damon to hop on board the vampire train, but “he was willing to let his brother do the journey alone”. If this is the standard, Damon will never win I’m afraid.Thats why one of my favorite quotes on TVD history was when Rebekah told Stefan off regarding/justifying why she decided to kill Elena. Saying that everyone judges her for killing Elena but no one looks at Elena for killing Kol… I don't remember it exactly but you catch my drift. Rebekah was a stellar character and Claire played her beautifully. She epitomized the push and pull of vampirism mixed with human longing. She was a sympathetic character but also ruthless. Agreed, the good brother/bad brother has been woefully overplayed along with quite a few other circular concepts this show loves to recycle.
I believe a lot of the flaws of the characters have to do with the writing process of the show itself. In the later seasons, I also think they have gone astray with the whole good brother vs bad brother. Both Stefan and Damon are anti heroes to me. I believe the characters of the show consider Stefan good and Damon bad because, Damon just took on the role. He didn't care what he had to do to get things done. Even now, he does things knowing it will upset the people he cares about the most but does them anyway. (Example: Compelling Alaric) I never felt compelling Alaric was a big whoop. Alaric has gotten a pass since his return and Damon (in spite of how much he cares for Alaric – which has been shown partially by Damon not kicking Alaric’s derriere for compelling Elena to excise any trace of Damon from her life) was behaving like all of them consistently behave; he assessed the situation and determined Bonnie – their friend and indeed savior – took precedence over a relative stranger. This type of decision is made time and time again in MF by all of the characters, and it is noted that someone who considers the affected newcomer valuable generally objects and is overridden due to loyalty to the core character who will be adversely affected, as in this case left in 1994 alone for eternity. Whether it was the correct decision remains to be seen, but it isn't a new action. They all make those calls.The difference between Damon and Stefan is that Damon embraced the vampirism and learn how to control it for his advantage without caring if his humanity was in the picture. Stefan embraced vampirism and realized it was far from his control so he fought for many years to keep the darkness hidden and hold on to humanity as much as possible. but again I feel they both have been able to embrace both sides. the vampirism and the humanity and make it work. This is also a wobbly area in the fandom. People who love Stefan constantly point to his humanity being off when he does anything untoward. Stefan apparently has a solid “on/off” switch and every bad thing he’s done is swept into that column. Damon’s humanity switch is more subtle and, as you said, he has learned to control it to an extent. Obviously, he hasn’t controlled it completely so why isn’t that excuse good enough for him? Why doesn’t his humanity switch come into play? He has one and it affects his actions. Saying the difference between the brothers is that Stefan wants to be good and Damon doesn’t care doesn’t hold water given the long history of regret and restitution Damon has undertaken along his journey. Both brothers have a long way to go and I agree they are both a mess.
I have more thoughts but you did write a lot lol and you made a lot of good points so hopefully tomorrow I can get to them. You are so kind to humor me. I really look forward to it as you are able to articulate so well without rancor where a Stefan fan's heart lies and head is at. It fascinates me that there can be so many polar views on this story and the characters.
You make some good points – the friendship issue regarding Stefan, etc. Although most of what you cited again was the earliest seasons. Stefan is well-liked or was well-liked by everyone. I’m sure friendships will rekindle. You seem to be a supporter of the brothers and ultimately that can only be good for the show as we need to care about their bond going forward.
Stefan has had a hard row to hoe the past season and I do not like what the writers have done to his character period. He should not have a pared down role in the story and was wasted with all of those doppelgangers, etc., when his own character could have been tapped into in a rich way. Part of what we all have loved about TVD was the depth of the characters and the care taken to develop them. Now it seems so many are reduced to two-dimension. The character of Stefan has not been handled lovingly and neither has the DE relationship. So much clutter when there is so much raw and interesting material to work with within the tapestry of the characters themselves. They are still vampires, correct? That is rarely if ever shown now.
Also this is a pro Defan thread, So Im going to move our comments to the official debating thread and we can keep discussing there <3 I apologize as I didn’t identify The Salvatore Brothers thread as “pro Defan” and initially was reacting to the following post that still stands there. It is parallel to my tone, but is decidedly anti-Damon rather than pro Defan which supports the point you took some offense to that decidedly negative comments regarding Damon don’t seem to have the same impact or receive the same intervention:
I never liked and still don't like the relationship between Stefan and Damon. I feel Stefan loves Damon more then Damon loves Stefan. If Damon truly loved his brother, he would not have done the things he did through the 170 some odd years that he did. The biggest one of course is taking Elena away from Stefan. I do agree that Elena is somewhat to blame however Damon was always in her face and always talking down about Stefan every chance he got. That is in no way brotherly love.
You are so right! Not brotherly behavior whatsoever. If he was my brother (I have one BTW), we would not be speaking. Especially after the whole Elena affair. Real brothers don't do that sort of thing. Damon should be ashamed of himself.
I think Damon does many of these things to Stefan because he's jealous and envious of him. He always have been. Ever since Katherine strolled into town. Stefan was sort of the favorite son and this is just Damon's way of extracting revenge on him. Taking the things he cares about. Katherine choosing Stefan drove him over the edge, and since then their relationship have never been the same.
So, some very interesting opinions, Ruby. It is decidedly difficult to discuss the brother's relationship neutrally as it has been wrought with angst, and it is difficult not to take sides or place blame. However, that really can't be a requirement or no true discussion is to be had, correct?
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Post by Ruby on Jan 22, 2015 18:36:12 GMT -5
wondersneverceaseAnd if you noticed I made a thread for just defan discussion good and bad
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Post by deb on Apr 5, 2015 7:26:04 GMT -5
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