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Post by crimmyj on Nov 17, 2014 16:09:48 GMT -5
Tyler and Liv. Tending bar doesn’t make up for Liv killing someone for Tyler. I’m still not understanding why Tyler can’t be a werewolf again. He functioned well as a werewolf so why can’t that happen again? If it’s to create this tension between Liv and Tyler it’s not working. I feel like I gotta defend Tyler and his desire to be human. He wants a normal human life. He didn't actually function that well as a werewolf, much of the burden for him was lifted because he was a hybrid and could control his wolf side. Before that he was slave to the moon and it was terrible for him in which he ran away with Jules to try to learn how to cope better. and even though he broke his sire bond to Klaus as a hybrid by turning a bunch of times didn't make the turning less painful, and also knowing in the end once the bond was broken he wouldn't have to turn again. And since we know Plec hates a crossover, there has been no mention of the moon rings in MF. I mean Alaric hated being a vamp and desired to be human, now he is and gets a second chance at a human life. Tyler desires his chance at a human life too, I don't think that desire to remain human should be downplayed, because I mean "what so bad about being a werewolf?" Yeah, but what is so great about it?
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Post by napoli on Nov 17, 2014 16:37:23 GMT -5
I feel like I gotta defend Tyler and his desire to be human. He wants a normal human life. He didn't actually function that well as a werewolf, much of the burden for him was lifted because he was a hybrid and could control his wolf side. Before that he was slave to the moon and it was terrible for him in which he ran away with Jules to try to learn how to cope better. and even though he broke his sire bond to Klaus as a hybrid by turning a bunch of times didn't make the turning less painful, and also knowing in the end once the bond was broken he wouldn't have to turn again. And since we know Plec hates a crossover, there has been no mention of the moon rings in MF. I mean Alaric hated being a vamp and desired to be human, now he is and gets a second chance at a human life. Tyler desires his chance at a human life too, I don't think that desire to remain human should be downplayed, because I mean "what so bad about being a werewolf?" Yeah, but what is so great about it? I agree that Tyler went through a struggle when he first became a werewolf but by the time he died in s5 there was no struggle for him. As a werewolf even before becoming a hybrid Tyler came into his own. He was no longer an a-hole and he wasn't killing anyone because of his new form. He was responsible and locking himself up to ensure no one would be hurt. The writers just didn't convince me that Tyler at the time of his returning to human form was being cured from a state of being which he was in conflict with. My comment about 'what's so bad about being a werewolf' was more of a response to Tyler being more concerned about a dying person because he would become a werewolf again versus being actually concerned that someone was dying. His complete lack of concern that he was killing someone was overshadowed by his fear of being a werewolf. I just don't buy it the way his story line was written.
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 17, 2014 17:38:24 GMT -5
I feel like I gotta defend Tyler and his desire to be human. He wants a normal human life. He didn't actually function that well as a werewolf, much of the burden for him was lifted because he was a hybrid and could control his wolf side. Before that he was slave to the moon and it was terrible for him in which he ran away with Jules to try to learn how to cope better. and even though he broke his sire bond to Klaus as a hybrid by turning a bunch of times didn't make the turning less painful, and also knowing in the end once the bond was broken he wouldn't have to turn again. And since we know Plec hates a crossover, there has been no mention of the moon rings in MF. I mean Alaric hated being a vamp and desired to be human, now he is and gets a second chance at a human life. Tyler desires his chance at a human life too, I don't think that desire to remain human should be downplayed, because I mean "what so bad about being a werewolf?" Yeah, but what is so great about it? I agree that Tyler went through a struggle when he first became a werewolf but by the time he died in s5 there was no struggle for him. As a werewolf even before becoming a hybrid Tyler came into his own. He was no longer an a-hole and he wasn't killing anyone because of his new form. He was responsible and locking himself up to ensure no one would be hurt. The writers just didn't convince me that Tyler at the time of his returning to human form was being cured from a state of being which he was in conflict with. My comment about 'what's so bad about being a werewolf' was more of a response to Tyler being more concerned about a dying person because he would become a werewolf again versus being actually concerned that someone was dying. His complete lack of concern that he was killing someone was overshadowed by his fear of being a werewolf. I just don't buy it the way his story line was written. That is because he was a hybrid when he died. As a straight up Were, he was still struggling with turning every moon cycle and had to alienate himself from friends and family to keep them from danger...he was never ok with that but felt it was something he had to do. He sacrificed the things he wanted most when he left. As a hybrid he could control the wolf and be with the people he loved, that helped keep him more centered. But if he enacts the curse he is just a werewolf again, not a hybrid...therefore he would have to go through the terrible moon cycle turning and also be a risk to his friends, and put him in the same desperate headspace he was in when he skipped town with Jules. I think his almost selfish concern at not reawakening the curse again just shows his clinging on to his humanity, its importance to him, and highlights how difficult and painful those memories of being a straight werewolf are to him. For me Tyler is one of the more complicated characters on the show because of this often gets overlooked or overshadowed, plus some of his sacrifices and losses are severely downplayed.
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Post by napoli on Nov 17, 2014 18:39:06 GMT -5
That is because he was a hybrid when he died. As a straight up Were, he was still struggling with turning every moon cycle and had to alienate himself from friends and family to keep them from danger...he was never ok with that but felt it was something he had to do. He sacrificed the things he wanted most when he left. As a hybrid he could control the wolf and be with the people he loved, that helped keep him more centered. But if he enacts the curse he is just a werewolf again, not a hybrid...therefore he would have to go through the terrible moon cycle turning and also be a risk to his friends, and put him in the same desperate headspace he was in when he skipped town with Jules. I think his almost selfish concern at not reawakening the curse again just shows his clinging on to his humanity, its importance to him, and highlights how difficult and painful those memories of being a straight werewolf are to him. For me Tyler is one of the more complicated characters on the show because of this often gets overlooked or overshadowed, plus some of his sacrifices and losses are severely downplayed. Even with your recap it still doesn't stick out of something that was overly detrimental for Tyler. The little they showed of the werewolves - Jules, Brady and the gang and Klaus' group that he transformed into failed hybrids with Stefan - they didn't come across as desperately wanting to be human again. I don't see Tyler's big struggle as a werewolf.
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 17, 2014 18:52:04 GMT -5
Even with your recap it still doesn't stick out of something that was overly detrimental for Tyler. The little they showed of the werewolves - Jules, Brady and the gang and Klaus' group that he transformed into failed hybrids with Stefan - they didn't come across as desperately wanting to be human again. I don't see Tyler's big struggle as a werewolf. You don't remember how terrible it was when he had to turn...both times we had to witness? How terrified and scared he was? Curled up in a ball and cried his eyes out in Caroline's lap protesting he can't live like this? The reason a sire bond existed between Klaus and his hybrids is because they were grateful he saved them from ever having to turn again. Jules, Brady, and the gang jumped at the chance that the moonstone was real that it could keep them from turning. Mason was desperate to keep Tyler from enacting the curse. Mason's journal and video journal chronicling the horror of being a werewolf, the pain and anguish every moon cycle. Mason went to get after the moonstone because of breaking the curse if the stories were true. Weres had to hide in the mountains away from people to stay safe and keep those they loved safe. It isn't so much a life they desired as a life they now had to deal with because once they were Werewolves, they had no choice but to be one.
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Post by napoli on Nov 17, 2014 19:42:53 GMT -5
Even with your recap it still doesn't stick out of something that was overly detrimental for Tyler. The little they showed of the werewolves - Jules, Brady and the gang and Klaus' group that he transformed into failed hybrids with Stefan - they didn't come across as desperately wanting to be human again. I don't see Tyler's big struggle as a werewolf. You don't remember how terrible it was when he had to turn...both times we had to witness? How terrified and scared he was? Curled up in a ball and cried his eyes out in Caroline's lap protesting he can't live like this? The reason a sire bond existed between Klaus and his hybrids is because they were grateful he saved them from ever having to turn again. Jules, Brady, and the gang jumped at the chance that the moonstone was real that it could keep them from turning. Mason was desperate to keep Tyler from enacting the curse. Mason's journal and video journal chronicling the horror of being a werewolf, the pain and anguish every moon cycle. Mason went to get after the moonstone because of breaking the curse if the stories were true. Weres had to hide in the mountains away from people to stay safe and keep those they loved safe. It isn't so much a life they desired as a life they now had to deal with because once they were Werewolves, they had no choice but to be one. I'm not denying that when he first turned it was horrible and excruciating but then he adjusted well and quickly. He went off with Jules and she taught him how to cope with turning and in turn Tyler helped others. It's not like he's a newbie anymore who only had a vampire to help him. Tyler learned how to cope and deal with it. Brady and friends wanted the moonstone to also stop the vampires from being able to go into the sunlight too. It wasn't only about them not turning. I'm also comparing it to Stefan being a vampire. His entire existence as a vampire was hell it's only now after 160+ years that he's finally adjusted. Tyler never went through anything like that where his entire existence as a werewolf was torturous except now that he's human again.
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 17, 2014 20:11:35 GMT -5
You don't remember how terrible it was when he had to turn...both times we had to witness? How terrified and scared he was? Curled up in a ball and cried his eyes out in Caroline's lap protesting he can't live like this? The reason a sire bond existed between Klaus and his hybrids is because they were grateful he saved them from ever having to turn again. Jules, Brady, and the gang jumped at the chance that the moonstone was real that it could keep them from turning. Mason was desperate to keep Tyler from enacting the curse. Mason's journal and video journal chronicling the horror of being a werewolf, the pain and anguish every moon cycle. Mason went to get after the moonstone because of breaking the curse if the stories were true. Weres had to hide in the mountains away from people to stay safe and keep those they loved safe. It isn't so much a life they desired as a life they now had to deal with because once they were Werewolves, they had no choice but to be one. I'm not denying that when he first turned it was horrible and excruciating but then he adjusted well and quickly. He went off with Jules and she taught him how to cope with turning and in turn Tyler helped others. It's not like he's a newbie anymore who only had a vampire to help him. Tyler learned how to cope and deal with it. Brady and friends wanted the moonstone to also stop the vampires from being able to go into the sunlight too. It wasn't only about them not turning. I'm also comparing it to Stefan being a vampire. His entire existence as a vampire was hell it's only now after 160+ years that he's finally adjusted. Tyler never went through anything like that where his entire existence as a werewolf was torturous except now that he's human again. I don't think he was well-adjusted more so than just coping because he had no choice, obviously once given the choice we see how badly his humanity means to him. I think it means just as much to him as it does to Stefan. And if Tyler was responsible for taking more human lives while in were form that would have weighed a heavier burden, in a sense he can almost consider himself "lucky" he wasn't a were for very long before being made hybrid. But I think it is pretty clear that the excruciating torture that it is to turn is still fresh in Tyler's memory hence his clinging on to his second chance so very tightly. If it was as easy to adjust then Tyler would certainly be more indifferent about the whole thing which he clearly is not. Check us out, a real honest to god debate in the debate thread. heck yeah!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 21:18:00 GMT -5
Here's the latest TVD rehash.
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Post by demetra on Nov 17, 2014 23:34:00 GMT -5
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Post by napoli on Nov 18, 2014 8:27:30 GMT -5
I'm not denying that when he first turned it was horrible and excruciating but then he adjusted well and quickly. He went off with Jules and she taught him how to cope with turning and in turn Tyler helped others. It's not like he's a newbie anymore who only had a vampire to help him. Tyler learned how to cope and deal with it. Brady and friends wanted the moonstone to also stop the vampires from being able to go into the sunlight too. It wasn't only about them not turning. I'm also comparing it to Stefan being a vampire. His entire existence as a vampire was hell it's only now after 160+ years that he's finally adjusted. Tyler never went through anything like that where his entire existence as a werewolf was torturous except now that he's human again. I don't think he was well-adjusted more so than just coping because he had no choice, obviously once given the choice we see how badly his humanity means to him. I think it means just as much to him as it does to Stefan. And if Tyler was responsible for taking more human lives while in were form that would have weighed a heavier burden, in a sense he can almost consider himself "lucky" he wasn't a were for very long before being made hybrid. But I think it is pretty clear that the excruciating torture that it is to turn is still fresh in Tyler's memory hence his clinging on to his second chance so very tightly. If it was as easy to adjust then Tyler would certainly be more indifferent about the whole thing which he clearly is not. Check us out, a real honest to god debate in the debate thread. heck yeah! And to think it was about of all people Tyler .
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Post by jennifer on Nov 18, 2014 12:28:30 GMT -5
I agree that Tyler went through a struggle when he first became a werewolf but by the time he died in s5 there was no struggle for him. As a werewolf even before becoming a hybrid Tyler came into his own. He was no longer an a-hole and he wasn't killing anyone because of his new form. He was responsible and locking himself up to ensure no one would be hurt. The writers just didn't convince me that Tyler at the time of his returning to human form was being cured from a state of being which he was in conflict with. My comment about 'what's so bad about being a werewolf' was more of a response to Tyler being more concerned about a dying person because he would become a werewolf again versus being actually concerned that someone was dying. His complete lack of concern that he was killing someone was overshadowed by his fear of being a werewolf. I just don't buy it the way his story line was written. That is because he was a hybrid when he died. As a straight up Were, he was still struggling with turning every moon cycle and had to alienate himself from friends and family to keep them from danger...he was never ok with that but felt it was something he had to do. He sacrificed the things he wanted most when he left. As a hybrid he could control the wolf and be with the people he loved, that helped keep him more centered. But if he enacts the curse he is just a werewolf again, not a hybrid...therefore he would have to go through the terrible moon cycle turning and also be a risk to his friends, and put him in the same desperate headspace he was in when he skipped town with Jules. I think his almost selfish concern at not reawakening the curse again just shows his clinging on to his humanity, its importance to him, and highlights how difficult and painful those memories of being a straight werewolf are to him. For me Tyler is one of the more complicated characters on the show because of this often gets overlooked or overshadowed, plus some of his sacrifices and losses are severely downplayed. Nice debate! What you said above crimmyj captures Tyler's dilemma so perfectly. Michael Trevino does a good job with this character and it's not mentioned much. He's good at being a dick, good at playing a werewolf suffering from his affliction, good as a laid back, arrogant hybrid. At the beginning of the season I figured something would trigger the werewolf curse and we'd go back down the road of his struggle. Instead, Tyler's walking this really fine line. He's doing what he can so he and others will be safe. I thought the accident was a great scene for Tyler, if not for the poor victim. It was a reminder that Tyler is never really safe from himself. He's always going to be one split second away from triggering his gene no matter how safe he is. His total panic at the possibility of being a werewolf again gave away what's really going on inside. It's a good SL for Tyler.
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Post by jennifer on Nov 18, 2014 12:34:47 GMT -5
Even with your recap it still doesn't stick out of something that was overly detrimental for Tyler. The little they showed of the werewolves - Jules, Brady and the gang and Klaus' group that he transformed into failed hybrids with Stefan - they didn't come across as desperately wanting to be human again. I don't see Tyler's big struggle as a werewolf. You don't remember how terrible it was when he had to turn...both times we had to witness? How terrified and scared he was? Curled up in a ball and cried his eyes out in Caroline's lap protesting he can't live like this? The reason a sire bond existed between Klaus and his hybrids is because they were grateful he saved them from ever having to turn again. Jules, Brady, and the gang jumped at the chance that the moonstone was real that it could keep them from turning. Mason was desperate to keep Tyler from enacting the curse. Mason's journal and video journal chronicling the horror of being a werewolf, the pain and anguish every moon cycle. Mason went to get after the moonstone because of breaking the curse if the stories were true. Weres had to hide in the mountains away from people to stay safe and keep those they loved safe. It isn't so much a life they desired as a life they now had to deal with because once they were Werewolves, they had no choice but to be one. I remember how terrible it was! {shiver}. "By the Light of the Moon" is one of my favorite episodes because of the heartfelt scenes between Tyler and Caroline as he faces his first full moon and after his transition is over. Really good acting. Plus Elijah frees Stefan from the tomb to return to Elena!
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 18, 2014 12:39:43 GMT -5
That is because he was a hybrid when he died. As a straight up Were, he was still struggling with turning every moon cycle and had to alienate himself from friends and family to keep them from danger...he was never ok with that but felt it was something he had to do. He sacrificed the things he wanted most when he left. As a hybrid he could control the wolf and be with the people he loved, that helped keep him more centered. But if he enacts the curse he is just a werewolf again, not a hybrid...therefore he would have to go through the terrible moon cycle turning and also be a risk to his friends, and put him in the same desperate headspace he was in when he skipped town with Jules. I think his almost selfish concern at not reawakening the curse again just shows his clinging on to his humanity, its importance to him, and highlights how difficult and painful those memories of being a straight werewolf are to him. For me Tyler is one of the more complicated characters on the show because of this often gets overlooked or overshadowed, plus some of his sacrifices and losses are severely downplayed. Nice debate! What you said above crimmyj captures Tyler's dilemma so perfectly. Michael Trevino does a good job with this character and it's not mentioned much. He's good at being a dick, good at playing a werewolf suffering from his affliction, good as a laid back, arrogant hybrid. At the beginning of the season I figured something would trigger the werewolf curse and we'd go back down the road of his struggle. Instead, Tyler's walking this really fine line. He's doing what he can so he and others will be safe. I thought the accident was a great one for Tyler, if not for the poor victim. It was a reminder that Tyler is never really safe from himself. He's always going to be one split second away from triggering his gene no matter how safe he is. His total panic at the possibility of being a werewolf again gave away what's really going on inside. It's a good SL for Tyler. When I think about it Tyler's overall story arc has been one of my favorites because of its complexities and I think it is a travesty that his struggles get so minimized compared to the other characters. Michael Trevino has done some stellar work. And so much is discussed over the struggles of vampires, but a werewolf struggle seems to be treated as an afterthought as if that change would be no big deal. It was called a curse for a reason. And right now Tyler is on the edge and the sad thing for him is he is so alone, even more so than some of the other characters in how he internalizes his strife. Which is what made he and Caroline's relationship so meaningful because she allowed him to be vulnerable. Maybe Liv can provide that for Tyler, maybe her relationship with her coven won't allow that, but that poor kid needs somebody.
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Post by jennifer on Nov 18, 2014 13:06:20 GMT -5
Nice debate! What you said above crimmyj captures Tyler's dilemma so perfectly. Michael Trevino does a good job with this character and it's not mentioned much. He's good at being a dick, good at playing a werewolf suffering from his affliction, good as a laid back, arrogant hybrid. At the beginning of the season I figured something would trigger the werewolf curse and we'd go back down the road of his struggle. Instead, Tyler's walking this really fine line. He's doing what he can so he and others will be safe. I thought the accident was a great one for Tyler, if not for the poor victim. It was a reminder that Tyler is never really safe from himself. He's always going to be one split second away from triggering his gene no matter how safe he is. His total panic at the possibility of being a werewolf again gave away what's really going on inside. It's a good SL for Tyler. When I think about it Tyler's overall story arc has been one of my favorites because of its complexities and I think it is a travesty that his struggles get so minimized compared to the other characters. Michael Trevino has done some stellar work. And so much is discussed over the struggles of vampires, but a werewolf struggle seems to be treated as an afterthought as if that change would be no big deal. It was called a curse for a reason. And right now Tyler is on the edge and the sad thing for him is he is so alone, even more so than some of the other characters in how he internalizes his strife. Which is what made he and Caroline's relationship so meaningful because she allowed him to be vulnerable. Maybe Liv can provide that for Tyler, maybe her relationship with her coven won't allow that, but that poor kid needs somebody. Right on. No one in Tyler's current circle of friends truly understands what he's been through. Liv doesn't understand exactly, but she got how frightened Tyler was when she made her choice. I wish Uncle Mason was around! The sentences I bolded reminded me of him, of the video of his transformation and how he helped Tyler in his own way. Plus Uncle Mason was good to look at. Damon!
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 18, 2014 13:42:54 GMT -5
When I think about it Tyler's overall story arc has been one of my favorites because of its complexities and I think it is a travesty that his struggles get so minimized compared to the other characters. Michael Trevino has done some stellar work. And so much is discussed over the struggles of vampires, but a werewolf struggle seems to be treated as an afterthought as if that change would be no big deal. It was called a curse for a reason. And right now Tyler is on the edge and the sad thing for him is he is so alone, even more so than some of the other characters in how he internalizes his strife. Which is what made he and Caroline's relationship so meaningful because she allowed him to be vulnerable. Maybe Liv can provide that for Tyler, maybe her relationship with her coven won't allow that, but that poor kid needs somebody. Right on. No one in Tyler's current circle of friends truly understands what he's been through. Liv doesn't understand exactly, but she got how frightened Tyler was when she made her choice. I wish Uncle Mason was around! The sentences I bolded reminded me of him, of the video of his transformation and how he helped Tyler in his own way. Plus Uncle Mason was good to look at. Damon! RIP Uncle Mason! I so wish they would have kept that character longer (indeed, so easy on the eyes) as he was an interesting character, and great foil for the Salvatores (or Damon). I loved the episode (ghost world) when ghost Mason came back and worked with Damon, and how confused Damon was because Mason didnt return for revenge but for redemption. It made me so sad for Mason, and even more pissed than I was the first time when Damon killed him.
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