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Post by melszoo on Oct 13, 2014 12:22:26 GMT -5
Are there any romantics out there like me that are upset that Elena has chosen to wipe her memory of Damon?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2014 12:45:21 GMT -5
Are there any romantics out there like me that are upset that Elena has chosen to wipe her memory of Damon? I'm a romantic, and I am upset about Elena losing her memory, but not for the reasons you might think. Though as a Damon fan I'm sure it's pretty tough to take. Sorry about that. See my post in the Yellow Ledbetter discussion for the reasons I mentioned.
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Post by melszoo on Oct 14, 2014 11:40:30 GMT -5
Just read your post. Why do you think it's a total cop out?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 19:03:06 GMT -5
Just read your post. Why do you think it's a total cop out? I assume you're speaking to me (next time use the "quote" button). Well, it's a cop out because (read more in my other post on the first episode) they're not allowing her to deal with her issues in a rational and normal manner. By taking away Damon's memory, they circumvent the healing process required for her growth, essentially creating this new "person" without the work required for it. So this happy-go-lucky "Elena" is sort of a fraud, cause she didn't arrive there by her own means, but by machinations that was done to her. Yes, she wanted this, but the writers are the ones in charge, so they have complete control over how they tell the story and what message they want to communicate. But they have no guts, which explains this "easy way out" philosophy that has been a trend throughout most of the series. I will forever be disappointed by it.
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Post by jennifer on Oct 15, 2014 10:28:57 GMT -5
Just read your post. Why do you think it's a total cop out? I assume you're speaking to me (next time use the "quote" button). Well, it's a cop out because (read more in my other post on the first episode) they're not allowing her to deal with her issues in a rational and normal manner. By taking away Damon's memory, they circumvent the healing process required for her growth, essentially creating this new "person" without the work required for it. So this happy-go-lucky "Elena" is sort of a fraud, cause she didn't arrive there by her own means, but by machinations that was done to her. Yes, she wanted this, but the writers are the ones in charge, so they have complete control over how they tell the story and what message they want to communicate. But they have no guts, which explains this "easy way out" philosophy that has been a trend throughout most of the series. I will forever be disappointed by it. Is Elena capable of doing what you're suggesting @dman? After 4 months she wasn't rational at all: feeding on people, occasionally to the point of near death, and taking drugs to hallucinate Damon. Even with some modified memories she was back to calling Luke for drugs. Elena said she knows all about grief and can't do it again. She certainly knows about grief, and it's her choice is to be compelled. I completely agree compulsion circumvented the normal healing process, but Elena's not normal. I keep thinking of Stefan saying that vampires don't go to therapy like humans so they get a pass (paraphrasing). There's no human equivalent for compulsion. The further the show goes into the supernatural world, the more the rules change for what's acceptable.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 15, 2014 11:16:47 GMT -5
Just read your post. Why do you think it's a total cop out? I assume you're speaking to me (next time use the "quote" button). Well, it's a cop out because (read more in my other post on the first episode) they're not allowing her to deal with her issues in a rational and normal manner. By taking away Damon's memory, they circumvent the healing process required for her growth, essentially creating this new "person" without the work required for it. So this happy-go-lucky "Elena" is sort of a fraud, cause she didn't arrive there by her own means, but by machinations that was done to her. Yes, she wanted this, but the writers are the ones in charge, so they have complete control over how they tell the story and what message they want to communicate. But they have no guts, which explains this "easy way out" philosophy that has been a trend throughout most of the series. I will forever be disappointed by it. Bravo. Nailed it.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 15, 2014 11:25:28 GMT -5
I assume you're speaking to me (next time use the "quote" button). Well, it's a cop out because (read more in my other post on the first episode) they're not allowing her to deal with her issues in a rational and normal manner. By taking away Damon's memory, they circumvent the healing process required for her growth, essentially creating this new "person" without the work required for it. So this happy-go-lucky "Elena" is sort of a fraud, cause she didn't arrive there by her own means, but by machinations that was done to her. Yes, she wanted this, but the writers are the ones in charge, so they have complete control over how they tell the story and what message they want to communicate. But they have no guts, which explains this "easy way out" philosophy that has been a trend throughout most of the series. I will forever be disappointed by it. Is Elena capable of doing what you're suggesting @dman? After 4 months she wasn't rational at all: feeding on people, occasionally to the point of near death, and taking drugs to hallucinate Damon. Even with some modified memories she was back to calling Luke for drugs. Elena said she knows all about grief and can't do it again. She certainly knows about grief, and it's her choice is to be compelled. I completely agree compulsion circumvented the normal healing process, but Elena's not normal. I keep thinking of Stefan saying that vampires don't go to therapy like humans so they get a pass (paraphrasing). There's no human equivalent for compulsion. The further the show goes into the supernatural world, the more the rules change for what's acceptable. I get tired of the "supernatural" excuse for having characters do dumb, easy, or terrible things. I have watched a ton of supernatural shows in my life that don't do the lazy thing. Even in the supernatural world there is an ethical code. And in the best supernatural based shows, the line is straddled between good and evil but there is still an underlying moral compass or it just wouldn't be interesting. But to excuse poor writing choices and even poorer character development because "they aren't human" is a cop out and a waste of creating deeper characters. edit: for clarification this "mini rant" is directed at the writers.
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Post by jennifer on Oct 16, 2014 10:09:03 GMT -5
Is Elena capable of doing what you're suggesting @dman? After 4 months she wasn't rational at all: feeding on people, occasionally to the point of near death, and taking drugs to hallucinate Damon. Even with some modified memories she was back to calling Luke for drugs. Elena said she knows all about grief and can't do it again. She certainly knows about grief, and it's her choice is to be compelled. I completely agree compulsion circumvented the normal healing process, but Elena's not normal. I keep thinking of Stefan saying that vampires don't go to therapy like humans so they get a pass (paraphrasing). There's no human equivalent for compulsion. The further the show goes into the supernatural world, the more the rules change for what's acceptable. I get tired of the "supernatural" excuse for having characters do dumb, easy, or terrible things. I have watched a ton of supernatural shows in my life that don't do the lazy thing. Even in the supernatural world there is an ethical code. And in the best supernatural based shows, the line is straddled between good and evil but there is still an underlying moral compass or it just wouldn't be interesting. But to excuse poor writing choices and even poorer character development because "they aren't human" is a cop out and a waste of creating deeper characters. edit: for clarification this "mini rant" is directed at the writers. Keeping in mind your argument, the last line of my post was very global. "The further the show goes into the supernatural world, the more the rules change for what's acceptable." It sounds like I'm saying anything goes, and I don't want to see that in TVD or any show. The compulsion seems like a lateral option to me, one that solves the problem of Elena lurking and feeding on people because the drugs make her thirsty. That's part of the morality of the show that she can't continue to do that. On the other hand, the compulsion will have its own negative consequences because it's altering Elena's reality in the opposite way the drugs did: first she's hallucinating to see Damon all the time, now she doesn't remember him for who he is or her real feelings for him. Swinging from one pole to the other isn't a solution. I found it an interesting choice in that way and believe there's potential for Elena to grow, and for the outcome to have meaning. I don't view it as a poor choice or lazy writing at the moment. Down the road? I might.
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Post by demetra on Oct 16, 2014 11:14:03 GMT -5
To some extent, Elena's a Damon addict the way Stefan is a blood addict.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 16, 2014 11:17:10 GMT -5
I get tired of the "supernatural" excuse for having characters do dumb, easy, or terrible things. I have watched a ton of supernatural shows in my life that don't do the lazy thing. Even in the supernatural world there is an ethical code. And in the best supernatural based shows, the line is straddled between good and evil but there is still an underlying moral compass or it just wouldn't be interesting. But to excuse poor writing choices and even poorer character development because "they aren't human" is a cop out and a waste of creating deeper characters. edit: for clarification this "mini rant" is directed at the writers. Keeping in mind your argument, the last line of my post was very global. "The further the show goes into the supernatural world, the more the rules change for what's acceptable." It sounds like I'm saying anything goes, and I don't want to see that in TVD or any show. The compulsion seems like a lateral option to me, one that solves the problem of Elena lurking and feeding on people because the drugs make her thirsty. That's part of the morality of the show that she can't continue to do that. On the other hand, the compulsion will have its own negative consequences because it's altering Elena's reality in the opposite way the drugs did: first she's hallucinating to see Damon all the time, now she doesn't remember him for who he is or her real feelings for him. Swinging from one pole to the other isn't a solution. I found it an interesting choice in that way and believe there's potential for Elena to grow, and for the outcome to have meaning. I don't view it as a poor choice or lazy writing at the moment. Down the road? I might. I would love to believe that some of these poor choices the writers make is for this grander scheme of showing cause and effect, but rarely do some of the characters (or writers) misdeeds result in any meaningful consequence. Damon is a prime example of that (zero consequence for killing Aaron Whitmore). actions and consequences are often brushed off because "who cares they are vampires" carte blanche that they write for themselves (or fans at large parrot). I've watched many of shows with vampires, weres, witches, and magic that at least follow up on consequences. This show seems to avoid that because they worry about giving the fans a romantic moment or "shocking death" but often let characters get a pass to suit their needs. I see the writers using the Elena memory wipe as a ploy to merely get to the dramatic Damon Elena reunion. They don't actually care about Elena's character growth (as they have clearly shown last season) they just care to hit a checklist of dramatic moments that in the end don't feel earned. To me the compulsion will merely allow them to keep Elena in stasis until they need a reunion moment, almost mirroring exactly what they did when Katherine took over Elena's body in season 5. Which again was set up for a Damon Elena reunion with absolutely zero consequences to any of Damon's actions while that was going on (nearly killing Jeremy again merely to locate Dr. Wes) and zero character development for Elena. Every time I think oh here is where the writers can really provide some insight into a characters actions, here is when there can be a growth moment they drop the ball entirely. It didn't used to be that way, but now the show plays as fan fiction with the depth of a dime store romance novel and not good and compelling tv drama. jennifer I think our difference is you still have hope, and I have none as the the writers have bludgeoned it out of me one too many times. I can't even begin to express my dismay at how mainly female writers have treated the female characters on this show, particularly how they have written Elena's character. It's tragic how they keep making her weaker.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 16, 2014 11:23:48 GMT -5
To some extent, Elena's a Damon addict the way Stefan is a blood addict. Problem is that the writers do not seem to view it that way. With Stefan we saw him struggle with that and face consequences to him falling off the wagon to then see him make it through even though he lost so much along the way. With Elena we get none of that, as they only push the bond between Damon and Elena even more...so far this season hasn't shown that will be any different as clearly they are setting up another romantic reunion. If Damon is the heroin in Elena's life, then why are the writers merely catering to her essentially falling off the wagon and sticking the needle in?
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Post by jennifer on Oct 16, 2014 11:56:09 GMT -5
Keeping in mind your argument, the last line of my post was very global. "The further the show goes into the supernatural world, the more the rules change for what's acceptable." It sounds like I'm saying anything goes, and I don't want to see that in TVD or any show. The compulsion seems like a lateral option to me, one that solves the problem of Elena lurking and feeding on people because the drugs make her thirsty. That's part of the morality of the show that she can't continue to do that. On the other hand, the compulsion will have its own negative consequences because it's altering Elena's reality in the opposite way the drugs did: first she's hallucinating to see Damon all the time, now she doesn't remember him for who he is or her real feelings for him. Swinging from one pole to the other isn't a solution. I found it an interesting choice in that way and believe there's potential for Elena to grow, and for the outcome to have meaning. I don't view it as a poor choice or lazy writing at the moment. Down the road? I might. I would love to believe that some of these poor choices the writers make is for this grander scheme of showing cause and effect, but rarely do some of the characters (or writers) misdeeds result in any meaningful consequence. Damon is a prime example of that (zero consequence for killing Aaron Whitmore). actions and consequences are often brushed off because "who cares they are vampires" carte blanche that they write for themselves (or fans at large parrot). I've watched many of shows with vampires, weres, witches, and magic that at least follow up on consequences. This show seems to avoid that because they worry about giving the fans a romantic moment or "shocking death" but often let characters get a pass to suit their needs. I see the writers using the Elena memory wipe as a ploy to merely get to the dramatic Damon Elena reunion. They don't actually care about Elena's character growth (as they have clearly shown last season) they just care to hit a checklist of dramatic moments that in the end don't feel earned. To me the compulsion will merely allow them to keep Elena in stasis until they need a reunion moment, almost mirroring exactly what they did when Katherine took over Elena's body in season 5. Which again was set up for a Damon Elena reunion with absolutely zero consequences to any of Damon's actions while that was going on (nearly killing Jeremy again merely to locate Dr. Wes) and zero character development for Elena. Every time I think oh here is where the writers can really provide some insight into a characters actions, here is when there can be a growth moment they drop the ball entirely. It didn't used to be that way, but now the show plays as fan fiction with the depth of a dime store romance novel and not good and compelling tv drama. jennifer I think our difference is you still have hope, and I have none as the the writers have bludgeoned it out of me one too many times. I can't even begin to express my dismay at how mainly female writers have treated the female characters on this show, particularly how they have written Elena's character. It's tragic how they keep making her weaker. OK, ok, I give crimmyj! I agree with many things you've written, particularly about S5. I hated that Elena never learned about Damon's part in Jeremy's death and how Aaron's death & aftermath were handled. And Elena's trajectory.....well, helpless victim sums it up. But you're right, we're in different places with TVD.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 16, 2014 12:25:21 GMT -5
I would love to believe that some of these poor choices the writers make is for this grander scheme of showing cause and effect, but rarely do some of the characters (or writers) misdeeds result in any meaningful consequence. Damon is a prime example of that (zero consequence for killing Aaron Whitmore). actions and consequences are often brushed off because "who cares they are vampires" carte blanche that they write for themselves (or fans at large parrot). I've watched many of shows with vampires, weres, witches, and magic that at least follow up on consequences. This show seems to avoid that because they worry about giving the fans a romantic moment or "shocking death" but often let characters get a pass to suit their needs. I see the writers using the Elena memory wipe as a ploy to merely get to the dramatic Damon Elena reunion. They don't actually care about Elena's character growth (as they have clearly shown last season) they just care to hit a checklist of dramatic moments that in the end don't feel earned. To me the compulsion will merely allow them to keep Elena in stasis until they need a reunion moment, almost mirroring exactly what they did when Katherine took over Elena's body in season 5. Which again was set up for a Damon Elena reunion with absolutely zero consequences to any of Damon's actions while that was going on (nearly killing Jeremy again merely to locate Dr. Wes) and zero character development for Elena. Every time I think oh here is where the writers can really provide some insight into a characters actions, here is when there can be a growth moment they drop the ball entirely. It didn't used to be that way, but now the show plays as fan fiction with the depth of a dime store romance novel and not good and compelling tv drama. jennifer I think our difference is you still have hope, and I have none as the the writers have bludgeoned it out of me one too many times. I can't even begin to express my dismay at how mainly female writers have treated the female characters on this show, particularly how they have written Elena's character. It's tragic how they keep making her weaker. OK, ok, I give crimmyj! I agree with many things you've written, particularly about S5. I hated that Elena never learned about Damon's part in Jeremy's death and how Aaron's death & aftermath were handled. And Elena's trajectory.....well, helpless victim sums it up. But you're right, we're in different places with TVD. Oh my god, jennifer, I just bludgeoned you into oblivion with my problematic TVD negativity. On TVD Thursday of all days too! I need to be reprimanded. Honestly, I am glad that people are still hopeful and I truly wish I could share in that hope. I continue to watch albiet with considerably less passion than I once had...I figure now my expectations are so low that IF anything good happens it will be a pleasant surprise?! That or I just opt for drinking an entire bottle of wine during each episode and succumb to hatewatching (ie what I did the last 10 or so episodes of season 5)
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Post by demetra on Oct 16, 2014 18:26:00 GMT -5
OK, ok, I give crimmyj! I agree with many things you've written, particularly about S5. I hated that Elena never learned about Damon's part in Jeremy's death and how Aaron's death & aftermath were handled. And Elena's trajectory.....well, helpless victim sums it up. But you're right, we're in different places with TVD. Oh my god, jennifer, I just bludgeoned you into oblivion with my problematic TVD negativity. On TVD Thursday of all days too! I need to be reprimanded. Honestly, I am glad that people are still hopeful and I truly wish I could share in that hope. I continue to watch albiet with considerably less passion than I once had...I figure now my expectations are so low that IF anything good happens it will be a pleasant surprise?! That or I just opt for drinking an entire bottle of wine during each episode and succumb to hatewatching (ie what I did the last 10 or so episodes of season 5) It's true that even I felt my belief in Stelena waiver last week. So I spent this week re-watching Season Three, and, seriously, folks, Stefan was a huge dick for most of it. I forgave him all of it the first time through because he was shot so beautifully -- he was still shot as if he was the hero -- and because I believed he and Elena belonged together. But his behaviour towards Elena was almost as bad as Damon's has been against Jeremy. Much as they did with Elena last week, Stefan needs to come to grips with walking out on Elena at the end of Season Two as much as Damon will have to deal with his decision to risk leaving Elena at the end of Season Five. If they feel that Elena and Stefan can be together again, it is not only Elena who needs to earn it.
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Post by crimmyj on Oct 16, 2014 19:03:36 GMT -5
Oh my god, jennifer, I just bludgeoned you into oblivion with my problematic TVD negativity. On TVD Thursday of all days too! I need to be reprimanded. Honestly, I am glad that people are still hopeful and I truly wish I could share in that hope. I continue to watch albiet with considerably less passion than I once had...I figure now my expectations are so low that IF anything good happens it will be a pleasant surprise?! That or I just opt for drinking an entire bottle of wine during each episode and succumb to hatewatching (ie what I did the last 10 or so episodes of season 5) It's true that even I felt my belief in Stelena waiver last week. So I spent this week re-watching Season Three, and, seriously, folks, Stefan was a huge dick for most of it. I forgave him all of it the first time through because he was shot so beautifully -- he was still shot as if he was the hero -- and because I believed he and Elena belonged together. But his behaviour towards Elena was almost as bad as Damon's has been against Jeremy. Much as they did with Elena last week, Stefan needs to come to grips with walking out on Elena at the end of Season Two as much as Damon will have to deal with his decision to risk leaving Elena at the end of Season Five. If they feel that Elena and Stefan can be together again, it is not only Elena who needs to earn it. Um... what? You are acting like he walked out carelessly with little regard and other options. He gave up everything in his life in order to save his brother's life. He doesn't go with Klaus, Damon dies. end of story. Then had to stay away in order to save Elena's life when it became apparent that Klaus' hybrid experiment wasn't working. Klaus had to believe that Elena was dead. (let's take a beat to fully appreciate there has been no "big bad" that can compare to the fear and chaos that Klaus could bring to MF) He already earned back Elena's love for that season, he needs to keep earning it even now? Why? He did come to grips with it, he even said that he knew he lost her to Damon the minute he left town. I will gladly debate you on the apples and oranges of Damon's treatment of Jeremy vs. Stefan's behavior in S.3 but probably not the place in this thread...debates thread seems more appropriate (or Ruby will have our heads!)
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