|
Post by crimmyj on Jun 21, 2014 21:06:26 GMT -5
Again, napoli you are showing you are far smarter/more thoughtful than the writers! I can only hope that the writers will head the way you are suggesting and while I had your hope with all the "toxic relationship" speechifying the characters did that they would BUT then the last 2 episode took napalm to that and ended up glorifying and romanticizing it. bad form! And while Stefan is consistent in his support for DE because of the happiness it brings his brother and the guilt Stefan has always felt for turning him, I still think the roadside "we are a toxic species" speech was total character BS. That wasn't consistent, that is not Stefan's character at all as he is a character who strongly believes you can choose how you define your life...that being a vampire is what you are but it doesnt define who you are, your own choices and action do. This is the core of who Stefan is, his pure heart, and why we all root for him. That Stefan would never excuse vampyrism in the completely thoughtless and offhanded way he did in that roadside speech, which only was set up to excuse Elena for going all in with Damon. There were many, many ways Stefan could have nudged Elena to get back with Damon, but that entire crap 'we are toxic, when humans have bad relationships they go to therapy vampires just get a free pass', was completely out of character for what he honestly believes. There is being consistent in his support of his brother and Elena BUT not at the expense of his own personality or his own beliefs!! and for me that moment was like Silas was back. It was a waste of a moment and a retcon of Stefan's character that was meant only to serve a couple that we have all determined is extraordinary unhealthy and codependent. You have a point crimmyj, but time tends to change your perspective on things. Things we did when we were younger, we no longer do now. Thoughts we had before aren't necessarily thoughts we would have now. Sometimes we come to certain realizations about various things in life, including ourselves, and that might have someone saying things they never thought they would. Given what he's experienced, maybe Stefan HAS come to that place in his life where he felt those things needed to be said. Maybe it's the writers way of saying he's changing, and not necessarily a blunder of his character. I just wish they were more eloquent in disaplaying those changes, for him and everyone else. Sure, time changes perspective, it however doesn't change your personality, your internal ethical code, your "you"ness. Plus we are talking about a character who has lived 162+ years, but now he switched his moral compass in what? a years time? a summers time? a days time? No, he switched because the writers needed to make whatever little dialogue from other characters to verify a choice that they made to help it fit into the SL, without a pause to whether or not that would be out of character. It was just another example of how sloppy this season had become in terms of character cohesion and continuity. The unevenness from episode to episode. If they discussed prior that they wanted Stefan's character to go a certain way, there would have been signs throughout the season to convey that, but the roadside toxic species speech really came out of left field completely. It was like whoever was writer of the week got to do whatever they want, and give their flourish to who they think the character is without some team meeting to discuss how these established characters would evolve in the new stories they put them in and how it would flow from one episode to the next, one season to the next. It is like all that mattered to those in charge was hitting a certain mark, a checklist if you will, and doing whatever it took to get from point a to point b as quickly as possible. It was systematic and in the end became a huge disservice to the characters, and without that core the storyline then also faltered. Like witnessing the beginning stages of what happened to True Blood. Please don't succumb to that TVD.
|
|
|
Post by crimmyj on Jun 21, 2014 21:09:55 GMT -5
I just want to step back and embrace the fact that this is a fun discussion. And why I wanted to find a community such as this one where things don't devolve into ship wars and the like. You are all awesome.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 22:13:41 GMT -5
"The Cell" was a pretty good episode on re-watch. Of course I liked it on first viewing too, so liking it again wasn't exactly a "stretch." We never get to see a lot of Damon's past, so it was nice (really not the most appropriate word to use given the not so 'nice" things he went though. lol) to see a bit of it here. This was one of the those episodes that sort of alters your perspective on someone. Watching him being tortured, I not only felt bad for him, but it also enabled me to understand him a little better. Going through what he went through, it's somewhat understandable why he acts the way he acts. It still doesn't excuse some of his terrible behavior, but it gives you a perspective on his reasonings. Also, I loved the the fact that it was a flashback (can't get enough of those), and this was the first appearance of hula-hoops champion (inside joke) Enzo. He was a pretty good guy, and a good friend to Damon, which made their escape scene all the more tragic. Damon leaving him there to die was so heartbreaking to watch. No wonder he had to turn off his humanity to do it. I felt really bad for Enzo. After all he did for Damon, the guy didn't deserve that. But ultimately everyone looks out for themselves in the end, and I guess Damon was doing the same. I just wish he could've found another way to save him. That's all. Hmm.... this is interesting? It looks like Katherine and Stefan are.... um.... getting "closer." And I don't mean just in that safe where they were. (BTW, nice job by Katherine helping Stefan with his PTSD. She was smart enough to figure out what to do, and it looks like it worked. One thing about Katherine people have forgotten in her "fragile" state is how good she is at coming up with a plan. The girl always gets the job done, and she deserves credit for that.) I meant lips locking, clothes ripping, sweating bodies entwined in various convulsions and.... um.... "positions." lol Yeah, they did the "deed" and it was hot, hot, hot! Did I mention hot! Whew! Someone better get my church fan ready. lol Okay, simmer down Dman, everyone is watching you. Okay, I'm calm now. But I really loved that scene, and it was so organic how it came about. Both were lonely people in fragile states, so their reaching out to each other in that moment was totally understandable. Good job by Nina and Paul for acting their acting their asses off and showing us that unbelievable chemistry they have together. And Caroline eavesdropping on them was so hilarious to watch. Talk about learning too much about someone. This is where that vampire hearing of theirs can be a real b***. Funny, funny stuff. So Elena is now trapped in Dr. West's lab along with the "look who's back from the dead" Enzo. I really hope this is just a practical joke on his part, cause why else would you strap someone down in a chair like that? Dr. West is joking right? No? Oh noooooo............ Elena!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by crimmyj on Jun 21, 2014 23:20:43 GMT -5
"The Cell" was a pretty good episode on re-watch. Of course I liked it on first viewing too, so liking it again wasn't exactly a "stretch." We never get to see a lot of Damon's past, so it was nice (really not the most appropriate word to use given the not so 'nice" things he went though. lol) to see a bit of it here. This was one of the those episodes that sort of alters your perspective on someone. Watching him being tortured, I not only felt bad for him, but it also enabled me to understand him a little better. Going through what he went through, it's somewhat understandable why he acts the way he acts. It still doesn't excuse some of his terrible behavior, but it gives you a perspective on his reasonings. Also, I loved the the fact that it was a flashback (can't get enough of those), and this was the first appearance of hula-hoops champion (inside joke) Enzo. He was a pretty good guy, and a good friend to Damon, which made their escape scene all the more tragic. Damon leaving him there to die was so heartbreaking to watch. No wonder he had to turn off his humanity to do it. I felt really bad for Enzo. After all he did for Damon, the guy didn't deserve that. But ultimately everyone looks out for themselves in the end, and I guess Damon was doing the same. I just wish he could've found another way to save him. That's all.Hmm.... this is interesting? It looks like Katherine and Stefan are.... um.... getting "closer." And I don't mean just in that safe where they were. (BTW, nice job by Katherine helping Stefan with his PTSD. She was smart enough to figure out what to do, and it looks like it worked. One thing about Katherine people have forgotten in her "fragile" state is how good she is at coming up with a plan. The girl always gets the job done, and she deserves credit for that.) I meant lips locking, clothes ripping, sweating bodies entwined in various convulsions and.... um.... "positions." lol Yeah, they did the "deed" and it was hot, hot, hot! Did I mention hot! Whew! Someone better get my church fan ready. lol Okay, simmer down Dman, everyone is watching you. Okay, I'm calm now. But I really loved that scene, and it was so organic how it came about. Both were lonely people in fragile states, so their reaching out to each other in that moment was totally understandable. Good job by Nina and Paul for acting their acting their asses off and showing us that unbelievable chemistry they have together. And Caroline eavesdropping on them was so hilarious to watch. Talk about learning too much about someone. This is where that vampire hearing of theirs can be a real b***. Funny, funny stuff. So Elena is now trapped in Dr. West's lab along with the "look who's back from the dead" Enzo. I really hope this is just a practical joke on his part, cause why else would you strap someone down in a chair like that? Dr. West is joking right? No? Oh noooooo............ Elena!!!!!!! I remember yelling at the tv during the fire scene quite a bit. Damon, if only you could have taken the keys off Dr Whitmore, who you just drained and was laying at your feet, not too far from the cage where hula hoop hips waits for freedom. "Cmon man the keys are RIGHT THERE, just get the damn keys, RIGHT THERE!" I think it would have been a much better story in selling Damon's redemption if they had him saving Enzo, but then something else happening that causes their broship breakup. But alas, it wasn't meant to be. Malarkey does some killer acting in this episode.
|
|
shoe20
Team Stefan
Posts: 1,739
|
Post by shoe20 on Jun 22, 2014 7:42:07 GMT -5
Again, napoli you are showing you are far smarter/more thoughtful than the writers! I can only hope that the writers will head the way you are suggesting and while I had your hope with all the "toxic relationship" speechifying the characters did that they would BUT then the last 2 episode took napalm to that and ended up glorifying and romanticizing it. bad form! And while Stefan is consistent in his support for DE because of the happiness it brings his brother and the guilt Stefan has always felt for turning him, I still think the roadside "we are a toxic species" speech was total character BS. That wasn't consistent, that is not Stefan's character at all as he is a character who strongly believes you can choose how you define your life...that being a vampire is what you are but it doesnt define who you are, your own choices and action do. This is the core of who Stefan is, his pure heart, and why we all root for him. That Stefan would never excuse vampyrism in the completely thoughtless and offhanded way he did in that roadside speech, which only was set up to excuse Elena for going all in with Damon. There were many, many ways Stefan could have nudged Elena to get back with Damon, but that entire crap 'we are toxic, when humans have bad relationships they go to therapy vampires just get a free pass', was completely out of character for what he honestly believes. There is being consistent in his support of his brother and Elena BUT not at the expense of his own personality or his own beliefs!! and for me that moment was like Silas was back. It was a waste of a moment and a retcon of Stefan's character that was meant only to serve a couple that we have all determined is extraordinary unhealthy and codependent. You have a point crimmyj, but time tends to change your perspective on things. Things we did when we were younger, we no longer do now. Thoughts we had before aren't necessarily thoughts we would have now. Sometimes we come to certain realizations about various things in life, including ourselves, and that might have someone saying things they never thought they would. Given what he's experienced, maybe Stefan HAS come to that place in his life where he felt those things needed to be said. Maybe it's the writers way of saying he's changing, and not necessarily a blunder of his character. I just wish they were more eloquent in disaplaying those changes, for him and everyone else. "D", I'm with crimmyj on this one.....you have a good point about change, but you don't out of the blue totally reverse everything you believe in.... as Stefan did in the "roadside" speech. The other "out of the Blue" moment was Damon for the first time letting Elena make a decision to risk her life. He just caved to her will and seemed happy with idea of blowing her up. Two very strange OOC scenes in the finale. Katherine was always #1 plan maker with her a,b,c... she thought things through. I always admired Damon's plans (although some were based on impulsion) They tended to work pretty slick. Why in God's name did the writers come up with such a crappy plan to kill the travelers, and put Damon's name on it?
|
|
|
Post by napoli on Jun 23, 2014 17:12:41 GMT -5
crimmyj and shoe20 here's one more attempt to convince you that Stefan's seemingly about face regarding DE isn't out of character. In 4x08 while the brothers are in NO and the boys are arguing about Elena and Stefan breaking up because of her feelings for Damon: Damon: Why? Cause its impossible to believe she could ever have feelings for me? Stefan: No, because its impossible for her to be so blind that she doesn't see how wrong you are for her. In 4x08 Elena is newly under the influence of the sire bond and her personality hasn't transformed yet into who she is in s5. S5 Elena and early-s4 Elena are two different characters. When Stefan is supporting DE in s5 he's supporting new Elena with Damon. This new Elena isn't compassionate as before. This Elena is selfish and prioritises her relationship with Damon above all else including her brother and her friends. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Elena has full agency and she is completely different. Damon isn't forcing Elena to be selfish. She's choosing to do this all on her own so why wouldn't Stefan want her to be someone that she loves, is compatible with and loves her back? Stefan wants her to be happy and puts her happiness above his own. At this point of the series, and you know I'm a hardcore SE fan, can anyone honestly say that DE don't belong together? Stefan is absolutely right to push DE back together because Damon is now perfect for Elena. When Stefan gives Elena the 'vampires are toxic' speech he's actually talking about himself being the most toxic. Stefan: We're vampires. We're a toxic species. Whether you want to blame it on magic or biology its just who we are. When a human gets ravenously hungry they eat a double cheeseburger. We kill people. Some of us are more extreme than others but that's just who we are. Stefan is reminding Elena of his own ripper past. Stefan as a ripper was worse than Damon even though Stefan overcame it.Elena: How come you're so much better at controlling it? Stefan: Because I'm so much worse when I don't. If Stefan is not in control and lets his ripper self overcome him then he is worse than any other vampire.
It's almost as though Stefan is saying that Damon is bad but that he's nowhere near as bad as Stefan was as the ripper. As if to say to Elena about her wanting to be with Damon that there is worse than being with Damon. I know this argument is weak because it completely ignores that Stefan is sorry for his past actions, has repented, changed and been redeemed and that Damon is unrepentant and is only sorry that it caused his and Elena's breakup but no sorrow or guilt toward his victims. Yet they need to have Stefan as the DE cheerleader because it shows the difference between how the brothers act when trying to influence Elena. Damon tried to intrude in SE's relationship even though Elena loved Stefan and Stefan is trying to help get DE back together because he knows Elena loves Damon instead of causing a further wedge between them. Also, Stefan doesn't really know how dysfunctional DE are and that Elena willingly went to her death with Damon just so she could keep him company. There's been no real danger, prior to the finale, against Elena because of DE for Stefan to believe that DE should not be together.
|
|
|
Post by demetra on Jun 23, 2014 18:29:22 GMT -5
"Yet they need to have Stefan as the DE cheerleader because it shows the difference between how the brothers act when trying to influence Elena. Damon tried to intrude in SE's relationship even though Elena loved Stefan and Stefan is trying to help get DE back together because he knows Elena loves Damon instead of causing a further wedge between them." Read more: tvdshow.proboards.com/thread/314/season-5-discussion-roundtable?page=16#ixzz35VYhHRPSThat's a good point, napoli!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2014 18:43:39 GMT -5
Here's what I think happened with Stefan's roadside speech to Elena. Like Matt, Stefan was tired of being caught in the drama of Damon and Elena's break-up. Stefan might also be uncomfortable around Elena while she's single and he might still have feelings for her. So, Stefan pulled some philosophy out of nowhere to push Elena away from him and in Damon's direction. Stefan wasn't supposed to realize at that time that he had any feelings for Caroline, yet he deliberately threw in Elena's face how awesome Caroline is, as if there was something going on between them. Stefan obviously felt he had something to prove. I know I've brought this up before, but I am certain that Elena was calling Stefan pathetic and not the situation they were in.
The sad thing is that I don't think Damon really wanted to get back together with Elena. It seemed like he did at times, but his heart wasn't in it. Between Damon's history with Augustine and all of the trouble Katherine caused, not to mention everything out of Caroline's mouth up until she slept with Klaus and made herself a hypocrite, Damon just couldn't be with Elena anymore. He wanted to be with her, but as he said, the relationship had turned toxic. Elena agreed with him later on, but they still both couldn't stay away from each other. I think Damon was killed off, whether temporarily or not, because that dilemma couldn't be resolved any other way. I still say that when Damon knew he was dead for good, he seemed a little relieved in comparison to Elena's crying. He was getting out of a toxic relationship without having to break Elena's heart or feel any long-term emotional pain himself. It was a clean break, finally.
I don't think sired Elena can be compared to Season 5 Elena because that would reopen the debate of whether Elena was sired to Damon again when her humanity turned on. I do agree, though, that things happened to Elena in Season 5 that could potentially alter her character in extreme ways. I think I remember her saying that she was afraid to live without Damon because then she might lose herself. By that scene she was desperate to hold onto something because Stefan had already told her they can't be friends.
|
|
shoe20
Team Stefan
Posts: 1,739
|
Post by shoe20 on Jun 24, 2014 13:28:22 GMT -5
crimmyj and shoe20 here's one more attempt to convince you that Stefan's seemingly about face regarding DE isn't out of character. In 4x08 while the brothers are in NO and the boys are arguing about Elena and Stefan breaking up because of her feelings for Damon: Damon: Why? Cause its impossible to believe she could ever have feelings for me? Stefan: No, because its impossible for her to be so blind that she doesn't see how wrong you are for her. In 4x08 Elena is newly under the influence of the sire bond and her personality hasn't transformed yet into who she is in s5. S5 Elena and early-s4 Elena are two different characters. When Stefan is supporting DE in s5 he's supporting new Elena with Damon. This new Elena isn't compassionate as before. This Elena is selfish and prioritises her relationship with Damon above all else including her brother and her friends. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Elena has full agency and she is completely different. Damon isn't forcing Elena to be selfish. She's choosing to do this all on her own so why wouldn't Stefan want her to be someone that she loves, is compatible with and loves her back? Stefan wants her to be happy and puts her happiness above his own. At this point of the series, and you know I'm a hardcore SE fan, can anyone honestly say that DE don't belong together? Stefan is absolutely right to push DE back together because Damon is now perfect for Elena. When Stefan gives Elena the 'vampires are toxic' speech he's actually talking about himself being the most toxic. Stefan: We're vampires. We're a toxic species. Whether you want to blame it on magic or biology its just who we are. When a human gets ravenously hungry they eat a double cheeseburger. We kill people. Some of us are more extreme than others but that's just who we are. Stefan is reminding Elena of his own ripper past. Stefan as a ripper was worse than Damon even though Stefan overcame it.Elena: How come you're so much better at controlling it? Stefan: Because I'm so much worse when I don't. If Stefan is not in control and lets his ripper self overcome him then he is worse than any other vampire.
It's almost as though Stefan is saying that Damon is bad but that he's nowhere near as bad as Stefan was as the ripper. As if to say to Elena about her wanting to be with Damon that there is worse than being with Damon. I know this argument is weak because it completely ignores that Stefan is sorry for his past actions, has repented, changed and been redeemed and that Damon is unrepentant and is only sorry that it caused his and Elena's breakup but no sorrow or guilt toward his victims. Yet they need to have Stefan as the DE cheerleader because it shows the difference between how the brothers act when trying to influence Elena. Damon tried to intrude in SE's relationship even though Elena loved Stefan and Stefan is trying to help get DE back together because he knows Elena loves Damon instead of causing a further wedge between them. Also, Stefan doesn't really know how dysfunctional DE are and that Elena willingly went to her death with Damon just so she could keep him company. There's been no real danger, prior to the finale, against Elena because of DE for Stefan to believe that DE should not be together. napoli, thanks for pulling me off the Wickery Bridge. I know the Elena I fell for died on the Bridge at the end of three. I keep seeing this new model spiral downward into something she never wanted to be, but her face looks the same (damn it). I completely understand and agree with what you saying, it's just hard to digest. As far as Stefan being the DE cheerleader.....I understand where he's coming from. He WOULD give up any personal feelings for Elena's happiness. We see how dysfunctional DE is, but your correct Stefan hasn't a clue. DE's consuming love is like a splinter in Elena's finger, she has to wait for it to fester and her body to reject it. Now! something out of context for me...... Damon sees all this too... He's the one referring to their relationship as toxic, and they're bad for each other. WHY? because he see the new selfish Elena too, and it's not what he fell in love with either. (A little buyer remorse) Bottom line for me is as much as I loved human Elena and all manifestations of Stefan ... There's no way I want them together at this point. Elena need a redemption arc. BAD I know S6 will be just that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2014 15:09:21 GMT -5
Bottom line for me is as much as I loved human Elena and all manifestations of Stefan ... There's no way I want them together at this point. Elena need a redemption arc. BAD I know S6 will be just that. I couldn't agree more that Stefan and Elena should not be together, but I feel this way for a different reason. I think Stefan and Elena were a great match when they were practically the same person, but they've drifted too far apart because they're both no longer who they were. When Elena became a vampire, she couldn't be who Stefan wanted her to be for a couple of reasons. When she wasn't sired to Damon, she killed people and then went through a personality change in order to cope with the fact that she'd killed people. Stefan can't be with Elena because he still partly blames her for what Silas did to him. Then there's the fact that he slept with Katherine, and then kissed her while she was in Elena's body and lied to Elena about it. If Stefan hadn't put everyone under a roof with Katherine when she was dying, Elena wouldn't have been anywhere near her. If Nadia had tried something to lure Elena out, someone would have figured out that Elena was Katherine's intended target for a passenger spell. But no, Stefan had to make everyone feel sorry for Katherine. If he hadn't done that, the 100th episode would have gone a little bit differently. What Katherine did to Elena is technically Stefan's fault. He knew better than to trust Katherine in his house with people he claimed to care about. He should have let her die in the hospital and kept his phone off until she was dead. Then Nadia's plan would have been too risky, or it just wouldn't have worked. I think the EPs said it right when they explained that Elena looks at the world through a different lens. She realizes now that no one is perfect and if she loves someone enough, she will even try to justify murder. Considering how much Elena wanted to save Damon, she would be better off with someone with an ugly past who wants to redeem himself. Clearly, helping men on the road to redemption is something Elena is good at. Damon pushed her away because of it, and he still couldn't stay away from her and still wanted to be better when she was around. Even Stefan told Elena once that she has a habit of refusing to give up on people she cares about. I think Damon did redeem himself, and his death was a result of something that was out of anyone's control. If Stefan really wanted Elena to be with Damon, it was because she made Damon want to be a better man. Try as he might, Stefan just couldn't redeem his brother on his own.
|
|
shoe20
Team Stefan
Posts: 1,739
|
Post by shoe20 on Jun 24, 2014 16:25:47 GMT -5
Bottom line for me is as much as I loved human Elena and all manifestations of Stefan ... There's no way I want them together at this point. Elena need a redemption arc. BAD I know S6 will be just that. I couldn't agree more that Stefan and Elena should not be together, but I feel this way for a different reason. I think Stefan and Elena were a great match when they were practically the same person, but they've drifted too far apart because they're both no longer who they were. When Elena became a vampire, she couldn't be who Stefan wanted her to be for a couple of reasons. When she wasn't sired to Damon, she killed people and then went through a personality change in order to cope with the fact that she'd killed people. Stefan can't be with Elena because he still partly blames her for what Silas did to him. Then there's the fact that he slept with Katherine, and then kissed her while she was in Elena's body and lied to Elena about it. If Stefan hadn't put everyone under a roof with Katherine when she was dying, Elena wouldn't have been anywhere near her. If Nadia had tried something to lure Elena out, someone would have figured out that Elena was Katherine's intended target for a passenger spell. But no, Stefan had to make everyone feel sorry for Katherine. If he hadn't done that, the 100th episode would have gone a little bit differently. What Katherine did to Elena is technically Stefan's fault. He knew better than to trust Katherine in his house with people he claimed to care about. He should have let her die in the hospital and kept his phone off until she was dead. Then Nadia's plan would have been too risky, or it just wouldn't have worked. I think the EPs said it right when they explained that Elena looks at the world through a different lens. She realizes now that no one is perfect and if she loves someone enough, she will even try to justify murder. Considering how much Elena wanted to save Damon, she would be better off with someone with an ugly past who wants to redeem himself. Clearly, helping men on the road to redemption is something Elena is good at. Damon pushed her away because of it, and he still couldn't stay away from her and still wanted to be better when she was around. Even Stefan told Elena once that she has a habit of refusing to give up on people she cares about. I think Damon did redeem himself, and his death was a result of something that was out of anyone's control. If Stefan really wanted Elena to be with Damon, it was because she made Damon want to be a better man. Try as he might, Stefan just couldn't redeem his brother on his own. Now, we're talkin. GREAT post. First I never thought Elena and Stefan were the same person.....I get Elena's transition to the "dark side"...I don't get Stefan blaming Elena for what Silas did.....sry. Stefan can't reengage with with Elena not because of Silas, but at this point there's not much common ground. He gave his blessing to DE, not because he thought it was best for either party. As far as Stefan feeling compassion for Katherine......who stuck the knife in? ? I can't blame Stefan for Kat taking over Elena's body as you can. This was a Kat decision to survive. I don't think anything in the finale had to do with Elena wanting to save Damon, but I do agree redemption is an arrow in Elena's quiver. I say Elena is not her self.....although many say Elena is her NEW self. As far as Damon redeeming himself in the finale...yep, he did ....he grabbed Bonnie's hand and kept from getting swept-ed away. I saw no other character change that make me believe Damon was on a new path. keep talkin'
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2014 18:37:54 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more that Stefan and Elena should not be together, but I feel this way for a different reason. I think Stefan and Elena were a great match when they were practically the same person, but they've drifted too far apart because they're both no longer who they were. When Elena became a vampire, she couldn't be who Stefan wanted her to be for a couple of reasons. When she wasn't sired to Damon, she killed people and then went through a personality change in order to cope with the fact that she'd killed people. Stefan can't be with Elena because he still partly blames her for what Silas did to him. Then there's the fact that he slept with Katherine, and then kissed her while she was in Elena's body and lied to Elena about it. If Stefan hadn't put everyone under a roof with Katherine when she was dying, Elena wouldn't have been anywhere near her. If Nadia had tried something to lure Elena out, someone would have figured out that Elena was Katherine's intended target for a passenger spell. But no, Stefan had to make everyone feel sorry for Katherine. If he hadn't done that, the 100th episode would have gone a little bit differently. What Katherine did to Elena is technically Stefan's fault. He knew better than to trust Katherine in his house with people he claimed to care about. He should have let her die in the hospital and kept his phone off until she was dead. Then Nadia's plan would have been too risky, or it just wouldn't have worked. I think the EPs said it right when they explained that Elena looks at the world through a different lens. She realizes now that no one is perfect and if she loves someone enough, she will even try to justify murder. Considering how much Elena wanted to save Damon, she would be better off with someone with an ugly past who wants to redeem himself. Clearly, helping men on the road to redemption is something Elena is good at. Damon pushed her away because of it, and he still couldn't stay away from her and still wanted to be better when she was around. Even Stefan told Elena once that she has a habit of refusing to give up on people she cares about. I think Damon did redeem himself, and his death was a result of something that was out of anyone's control. If Stefan really wanted Elena to be with Damon, it was because she made Damon want to be a better man. Try as he might, Stefan just couldn't redeem his brother on his own. Now, we're talkin. GREAT post. First I never thought Elena and Stefan were the same person.....I get Elena's transition to the "dark side"...I don't get Stefan blaming Elena for what Silas did.....sry. Stefan can't reengage with with Elena not because of Silas, but at this point there's not much common ground. He gave his blessing to DE, not because he thought it was best for either party. As far as Stefan feeling compassion for Katherine......who stuck the knife in? ? I can't blame Stefan for Kat taking over Elena's body as you can. This was a Kat decision to survive. I don't think anything in the finale had to do with Elena wanting to save Damon, but I do agree redemption is an arrow in Elena's quiver. I say Elena is not her self.....although many say Elena is her NEW self. As far as Damon redeeming himself in the finale...yep, he did ....he grabbed Bonnie's hand and kept from getting swept-ed away. I saw no other character change that make me believe Damon was on a new path. keep talkin' Well, I think Damon decided to kill himself along with the Travelers knowing that everything might not go as planned. He lied to Elena to keep her from risking her life, but I'm sure they both knew that there was a chance Damon would die and not come back. That's why Elena got into the car with him. She was still afraid that he might die forever and she wanted to go with him. Elena's action was extremely unhealthy, but it proves that at least one person in that scenario was thinking realistically. When Elena was crying and said, "You lied to me," I think it was just an emotional reaction to the fact that Damon's spirit was going to be gone for good. It's still debatable if or how Damon can be brought back. The weird part is that Elena's grieving was the first healthy behavior I'd seen her display in a while. I'm not sure why Damon seemed so calm. It could have been that he was glad to be out of a toxic relationship, or that he felt a sense of peace because he'd saved so many people, or it could have been a little of both. It's really just a theory right now, maybe one of many, that Damon went to the same place Bonnie did because he was holding her hand. The cliffhanger was designed so that we could come up with theories about what happened to them and discuss it throughout the hiatus. Damon might get brought out of a dark dimension, and he might be the one to tell everybody that the dimension exists. We only know about it because Caroline Dries had to explain in an interview where Katherine went. It was obvious to me right away that Stefan was the one who stuck Katherine with the dagger because a) he's the only one she trusted and she wouldn't have expected it, and b) he felt guilty about what he had done. No one really needs to blame Stefan for what Katherine did to Elena because he probably blames himself, but at the same time he wants Elena away from him. I think that by the end of the season, Stefan loved his brother more than he really cared about Elena. He knew he would be throwing her into a toxic, unhealthy relationship when he made that speech. Stefan just didn't like being around Elena while she was single because he was afraid he would start re-examining his feelings for her. He also loved his brother and knew that Elena was good for Damon, even if Damon wasn't good for Elena. If Stefan wanted to do the right thing and not what would benefit him or Damon, he would have told Elena that she might be better off with someone who isn't a vampire. I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but Elena has only ever slept with vampires. That's kind of sad.
|
|
|
Post by demetra on Jun 24, 2014 20:04:42 GMT -5
Well, there was Matt.
|
|
|
Post by crimmyj on Jun 25, 2014 1:40:19 GMT -5
crimmyj and shoe20 here's one more attempt to convince you that Stefan's seemingly about face regarding DE isn't out of character. In 4x08 while the brothers are in NO and the boys are arguing about Elena and Stefan breaking up because of her feelings for Damon: Damon: Why? Cause its impossible to believe she could ever have feelings for me? Stefan: No, because its impossible for her to be so blind that she doesn't see how wrong you are for her. In 4x08 Elena is newly under the influence of the sire bond and her personality hasn't transformed yet into who she is in s5. S5 Elena and early-s4 Elena are two different characters. When Stefan is supporting DE in s5 he's supporting new Elena with Damon. This new Elena isn't compassionate as before. This Elena is selfish and prioritises her relationship with Damon above all else including her brother and her friends. Sounds familiar doesn't it. Elena has full agency and she is completely different. Damon isn't forcing Elena to be selfish. She's choosing to do this all on her own so why wouldn't Stefan want her to be someone that she loves, is compatible with and loves her back? Stefan wants her to be happy and puts her happiness above his own. At this point of the series, and you know I'm a hardcore SE fan, can anyone honestly say that DE don't belong together? Stefan is absolutely right to push DE back together because Damon is now perfect for Elena. When Stefan gives Elena the 'vampires are toxic' speech he's actually talking about himself being the most toxic. Stefan: We're vampires. We're a toxic species. Whether you want to blame it on magic or biology its just who we are. When a human gets ravenously hungry they eat a double cheeseburger. We kill people. Some of us are more extreme than others but that's just who we are. Stefan is reminding Elena of his own ripper past. Stefan as a ripper was worse than Damon even though Stefan overcame it.Elena: How come you're so much better at controlling it? Stefan: Because I'm so much worse when I don't. If Stefan is not in control and lets his ripper self overcome him then he is worse than any other vampire.
It's almost as though Stefan is saying that Damon is bad but that he's nowhere near as bad as Stefan was as the ripper. As if to say to Elena about her wanting to be with Damon that there is worse than being with Damon. I know this argument is weak because it completely ignores that Stefan is sorry for his past actions, has repented, changed and been redeemed and that Damon is unrepentant and is only sorry that it caused his and Elena's breakup but no sorrow or guilt toward his victims. Yet they need to have Stefan as the DE cheerleader because it shows the difference between how the brothers act when trying to influence Elena. Damon tried to intrude in SE's relationship even though Elena loved Stefan and Stefan is trying to help get DE back together because he knows Elena loves Damon instead of causing a further wedge between them. Also, Stefan doesn't really know how dysfunctional DE are and that Elena willingly went to her death with Damon just so she could keep him company. There's been no real danger, prior to the finale, against Elena because of DE for Stefan to believe that DE should not be together. napoli, thanks for pulling me off the Wickery Bridge. I know the Elena I fell for died on the Bridge at the end of three. I keep seeing this new model spiral downward into something she never wanted to be, but her face looks the same (damn it). I completely understand and agree with what you saying, it's just hard to digest. As far as Stefan being the DE cheerleader.....I understand where he's coming from. He WOULD give up any personal feelings for Elena's happiness. We see how dysfunctional DE is, but your correct Stefan hasn't a clue. DE's consuming love is like a splinter in Elena's finger, she has to wait for it to fester and her body to reject it. Now! something out of context for me...... Damon sees all this too... He's the one referring to their relationship as toxic, and they're bad for each other. WHY? because he see the new selfish Elena too, and it's not what he fell in love with either. (A little buyer remorse) Bottom line for me is as much as I loved human Elena and all manifestations of Stefan ... There's no way I want them together at this point. Elena need a redemption arc. BAD I know S6 will be just that. shoe20 got talked off the bridge?! good job, napoli you at least convinced one of us! Trust me, I totally understand what you are saying, I just do not necessarily agree that the writers are coming from the same place. More than the "toxic species" line, I particularly hate the line he gives (same speech mind you) that I'll paraphrase 'when humans want to break from a complicated relationship they go to therapy, vampires get a pass.' What? yeah...no. that would not come out of Stefan's mouth. Again, lazy writing. The writers could have written a great many things to legitimize DE, but mangling Stefan's character in order to do that ...yeah...no. nope. stop writers. just stop. and shoe20 totally agree with your SE assessment. So much would have to happen for their stars to align again and I just don't know if the writers can get there or I want them too. Stefan is going to be broken next season...he has lost everything, Elena, Lexi, his brother. Bearded vision quest Stefan needs to find his spirit animal.
|
|
|
Post by demetra on Jun 25, 2014 7:18:16 GMT -5
Well, I am up to 500 years of Solitude in my re-watch of Season Five. There have been both more moments of Stefan and Elena together than I remembered and more conversations by Stefan working on Elena and Damon to get back together than I'd realized. Stefan helping Katherine find peace was still a beautiful series highpoint. I also can't believe how much or how often Elena was bled. Wes took four pints of her blood in 50 Shades of Grayson, then the next day it seemed like Nadia traps Stefan and Elena and they are both bled of a bucket of their blood each. I wonder why these copious bleedings never really went anywhere. And this is before the last episodes where she and Stefan are bled out for four days. It was a weird season as well for all the time Damon, Elena, and Stefan each spent captured or imprisoned. Hard to imagine what Stefan did for the 145 years before he met Elena, where he could go anywhere he wanted with not much drama.
|
|