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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2014 7:37:51 GMT -5
Up to 2x15 in my summer break re-watch, The Dinner Party.I did notice a couple of things about Damon. 1) In the 1864 flashback: Stefan is luxuriating in bloodlust with four captive women. Damon interrupts, frees two, and then tells Stefan he's leaving. Stefan begs him to stay. I just realized that at that point Damon likely has already learned from Emily the story that Katherine has been imprisoned in the tomb, she did not die in the fire Yet he deliberately witholds that information from Stefan. And people is always accusing Stefan of being a liar. Ahah! Secondly, back in the moment, Damon shows up in the tomb with a pint of blood and two new outfits for Katherine, saying he only had time for a short trip shopping. Why couldn't he do us all a favour ang go by the store and pick up Elena some new clothes after the fire during the three months she was living in his house? The first serious, the second just poking a little fun Damon appeared to have a connection to Katherine even after he knew she betrayed him and only wanted Stefan. Damon's insistence on getting revenge in the 100th episode, and in the episode after that, sort of makes him look like a jilted lover. Katherine tried to kill Damon later on because she saw him as an obstacle between her and Stefan. After everything Katherine had done to everyone including Damon, he was actually impressed by the fact that she put herself in Elena's body. I think Damon stopped loving Elena, and pretty much gave up on her, when he thought Elena was trying to kill him to be with Stefan. Even though it was a misunderstanding, it was still a lot of damage, and I doubt Damon could have just gone back to the way things were when Elena came back. Elena felt like she was back in the blink of an eye, but Damon spent three weeks suffering and killing people. Sometimes I wonder if Damon accepted so quickly that he wasn't getting resurrected because he was finally getting out of that push-and-pull with Elena without having to dump her again. It's hard to say whether Damon was still in love with Katherine after almost two centuries of pain and suffering. The way that Silas refused to have Elena around when he was going to see Amara again made me wonder if Silas was feeling drawn to Elena. When it comes to doppelgangers, maybe someone who was in love with a doppelganger's predecessor can easily fall for the new doppelganger but still be in love with a previous one. That would explain why Klaus avoided too much contact with Elena and concentrated on Caroline instead. Men who knew Tatia and/or Katherine are aware that Elena is a different person, but maybe they can't get too close to Elena without the same feelings developing. Then I imagine things would get confusing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 20:37:38 GMT -5
I'm now starting to get into the brunt of the season (episodes 6 and onward) and it became painfully aware why I didn't like this season. Silas is annoying as hell (this was the knock-knock joke episode. Sigh!) and the Tessa storyline has lost some of it's luster. (Not only is her agenda painfully stereotypical, she also drones on and on about what Silas did to her and how much she hates him. Jeez!!!! It's two thousand years already.... let it go woman!) Other than those two major complaints, it was somewhat entertaining. I do like Damon's quest for finding Bonnie, but I didn't like how he came about it. Sacrificing Katherine the way he did was one of the most coldest deeds he's ever done. Just completely heartless! It was so painful to watch. Katherine begged for her life, but he "killed" her anyway. Just a terrible affair. Plus, Elena just stood there while it happened, looking like a complete yes man. I know you hate her Elena, but she was human, and you could have at least shown a little more compassion towards her, given that that's the quality you're most known for. But she did nothing! No protest, no words of discouragement, nothing! I was so disappointed in her. Sigh!
I know everyone was gung-ho about bringing Bonnie back, but she IS dead, and killing a human being (Katherine barely qualifies, but she does deserve that respect) to accomplish that was just wrong. Just so wrong. Of all the things these people have done in the name of "saving" someone or "protecting" their loved ones, I have to say: this might be the most brutal example. So, as you can tell, I was not happy with that scenario. And as much as some of the upcoming storylines are going to be annoying, I'll have to punish through it (never thought I would say that about my favorite show. It's amazing how things change, am I right? Sigh!). I promised I would watch the season again, and I will. But the ride: definitely not the best!
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Post by crimmyj on Jun 20, 2014 20:51:51 GMT -5
I'm now starting to get into the brunt of the season (episodes 6 and onward) and it became painfully aware why I didn't like this season. Silas is annoying as hell (this was the knock-knock joke episode. Sigh!) and the Tessa storyline has lost some of it's luster. (Not only is her agenda painfully stereotypical, she also drones on and on about what Silas did to her and how much she hates him. Jeez!!!! It's two thousand years already.... let it go woman!) Other than those two major complaints, it was somewhat entertaining. I do like Damon's quest for finding Bonnie, but I didn't like how he came about it. Sacrificing Katherine the way he did was one of the most coldest deeds he's ever done. Just completely heartless! It was so painful to watch. Katherine begged for her life, but he "killed" her anyway. Just a terrible affair. Plus, Elena just stood there while it happened, looking like a complete yes man. I know you hate her Elena, but she was human, and you could have at least shown a little more compassion towards her, given that that's the quality you're most known for. But she did nothing! No protest, not words of discouragement, nothing! I was so disappointed in her. Sigh! I know everyone was gung-ho about bringing Bonnie back, but she IS dead, and killing a human being (Katherine barely qualifies, but she does deserve that respect) to accomplish that was just wrong. Just so wrong. Of all the things these people have done in the name of "saving" someone or "protecting" their loved ones, I have to say: this might be the most brutal example. So, as you can tell, I was not happy with that scenario. And as much as some of the upcoming storylines are going to be annoying, I'll have to punish through it (never thought I would say that about my favorite show. It's amazing how things change, am I right? Sigh!). I promised I would watch the season again, and I will. But the ride: definitely not the best! That scene with Katherine didn't sit well with me either. It was uncomfortable to watch Elena stand there and say nothing. And downright cringe worthy when Elena said "you're got to be kidding me" when they could faintly hear Katherine's heart still beating. Seriously, writers? I wish I could tell you that it get better from here. But you already know that it does not. Feel free to rant over in the venting vault, you might need to.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 21:10:35 GMT -5
I'm now starting to get into the brunt of the season (episodes 6 and onward) and it became painfully aware why I didn't like this season. Silas is annoying as hell (this was the knock-knock joke episode. Sigh!) and the Tessa storyline has lost some of it's luster. (Not only is her agenda painfully stereotypical, she also drones on and on about what Silas did to her and how much she hates him. Jeez!!!! It's two thousand years already.... let it go woman!) Other than those two major complaints, it was somewhat entertaining. I do like Damon's quest for finding Bonnie, but I didn't like how he came about it. Sacrificing Katherine the way he did was one of the most coldest deeds he's ever done. Just completely heartless! It was so painful to watch. Katherine begged for her life, but he "killed" her anyway. Just a terrible affair. Plus, Elena just stood there while it happened, looking like a complete yes man. I know you hate her Elena, but she was human, and you could have at least shown a little more compassion towards her, given that that's the quality you're most known for. But she did nothing! No protest, not words of discouragement, nothing! I was so disappointed in her. Sigh! I know everyone was gung-ho about bringing Bonnie back, but she IS dead, and killing a human being (Katherine barely qualifies, but she does deserve that respect) to accomplish that was just wrong. Just so wrong. Of all the things these people have done in the name of "saving" someone or "protecting" their loved ones, I have to say: this might be the most brutal example. So, as you can tell, I was not happy with that scenario. And as much as some of the upcoming storylines are going to be annoying, I'll have to punish through it (never thought I would say that about my favorite show. It's amazing how things change, am I right? Sigh!). I promised I would watch the season again, and I will. But the ride: definitely not the best! That scene with Katherine didn't sit well with me either. It was uncomfortable to watch Elena stand there and say nothing. And downright cringe worthy when Elena said "you're got to be kidding me" when they could faintly hear Katherine's heart still beating. Seriously, writers? I wish I could tell you that it get better from here. But you already know that it does not. Feel free to rant over in the venting vault, you might need to. You're right about that Elena "you've got to be kidding me" scene. It was so horribly unlike her to react that way. I mean... it was bad enough she just stood there and did nothing, but to have that reaction, was just painful to watch. It's like the writers did a complete 180 on her character. Just a terrible job by them. That moment was basically the beginning of her downward spiral this season; when everyone began questioning her motives and her character. Sadly, the questions never stopped coming.
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Post by demetra on Jun 20, 2014 21:39:52 GMT -5
It was cold. But Katherine fed Jeremy to Silas in exactly the same way. Someone on the writing team is a bit Old Testament -- eye for eye -- that way. Because Stefan finishes her off the same way she skewered him with the candlestick back in Season Two.
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Post by napoli on Jun 20, 2014 22:26:01 GMT -5
@dman24 When you wrote about Elena '..you could have at least shown a little more compassion towards her,' this is an understatement because Elena showed NO compassion toward Katherine while Damon was killing her. It fits (no compassion) with Elena's character being darker and in a co-dependent, toxic relationship. As much as I agree with you demetra that Kat was a b*** for killing Jeremy, had Elena been left on her own there is no way she would have killed/fed Kat to Silas so it was an important scene to show how Elena acts within the DE relationship. It was the writers who had DE refer to themselves as toxic, co-dependent, controlling, consuming and so the writers had to support this characterisation through their actions. crimmyj as much as I've had complaints about the story line this season I liked the way the writers were consistent with Elena's character. They had to show her being changed. Only this version of Elena would accept Damon in her life. Elena with full compassion and unbending morals could never accept an unchanged Damon. Not only did the writers show how dark Elena could be (speechless while Damon is killing a defenseless, human Kat) when she follows Damon lead (controlling) but the writers also showed how Elena forgave Kat in 500 Years of Solitude after she overheard Stefan being kind to Kat and giving her peace in her last moments. Its not a coincidence that the writers had Elena react so differently toward the same character (Kat) depending on which brother she was around.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 22:38:19 GMT -5
It was cold. But Katherine fed Jeremy to Silas in exactly the same way. Someone on the writing team is a bit Old Testament -- eye for eye -- that way. Because Stefan finishes her off the same way she skewered him with the candlestick back in Season Two. You have a point about the "eye for an eye" thing. I didn't see that parallel until you mentioned it. Good job. But I still think it was wrong for Elena to just stand there and do nothing. It's not like her. I expected that from Damon, not her. (I mean.... look whom she's dating for God's sake: the guy that terroized her in the first season, and the same guy that killed her brother. So if she can forgive those heinous offensives, she can do the same with Katherine. Then again, she's not having sex with Katherine, so maybe that might be the issue. I guess Damon must be doing "something" right. lol)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2014 22:42:31 GMT -5
@dman24 When you wrote about Elena '..you could have at least shown a little more compassion towards her,' this is an understatement because Elena showed NO compassion toward Katherine while Damon was killing her. It fits (no compassion) with Elena's character being darker and in a co-dependent, toxic relationship. As much as I agree with you demetra that Kat was a b*** for killing Jeremy, had Elena been left on her own there is no way she would have killed/fed Kat to Silas so it was an important scene to show how Elena acts within the DE relationship. It was the writers who had DE refer to themselves as toxic, co-dependent, controlling, consuming and so the writers had to support this characterisation through their actions. crimmyj as much as I've had complaints about the story line this season I liked the way the writers were consistent with Elena's character. They had to show her being changed. Only this version of Elena would accept Damon in her life. Elena with full compassion and unbending morals could never accept an unchanged Damon. Not only did the writers show how dark Elena could be (speechless while Damon is killing a defenseless, human Kat) when she follows Damon lead (controlling) but the writers also showed how Elena forgave Kat in 500 Years of Solitude after she overheard Stefan being kind to Kat and giving her peace in her last moments. Its not a coincidence that the writers had Elena react so differently toward the same character (Kat) depending on which brother she was around. Nice Napoli. Very interesting and thought provoking points. The parallels about how Elena acts between the brothers: definitely true!
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Post by crimmyj on Jun 21, 2014 0:08:07 GMT -5
It was cold. But Katherine fed Jeremy to Silas in exactly the same way. Someone on the writing team is a bit Old Testament -- eye for eye -- that way. Because Stefan finishes her off the same way she skewered him with the candlestick back in Season Two. You have a point about the "eye for an eye" thing. I didn't see that parallel until you mentioned it. Good job. But I still think it was wrong for Elena to just stand there and do nothing. It's not like her. I expected that from Damon, not her. (I mean.... look whom she's dating for God's sake: the guy that terroized her in the first season, and the same guy that killed her brother. So if she can forgive those heinous offensives, she can do the same with Katherine. Then again, she's not having sex with Katherine, so maybe that might be the issue. I guess Damon must be doing "something" right. lol) Just by typing that out you made my brain go there for a moment. It was a weird place. *shakes head*
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Post by crimmyj on Jun 21, 2014 0:26:05 GMT -5
@dman24 When you wrote about Elena '..you could have at least shown a little more compassion towards her,' this is an understatement because Elena showed NO compassion toward Katherine while Damon was killing her. It fits (no compassion) with Elena's character being darker and in a co-dependent, toxic relationship. As much as I agree with you demetra that Kat was a b*** for killing Jeremy, had Elena been left on her own there is no way she would have killed/fed Kat to Silas so it was an important scene to show how Elena acts within the DE relationship. It was the writers who had DE refer to themselves as toxic, co-dependent, controlling, consuming and so the writers had to support this characterisation through their actions. crimmyj as much as I've had complaints about the story line this season I liked the way the writers were consistent with Elena's character. They had to show her being changed. Only this version of Elena would accept Damon in her life. Elena with full compassion and unbending morals could never accept an unchanged Damon. Not only did the writers show how dark Elena could be (speechless while Damon is killing a defenseless, human Kat) when she follows Damon lead (controlling) but the writers also showed how Elena forgave Kat in 500 Years of Solitude after she overheard Stefan being kind to Kat and giving her peace in her last moments. Its not a coincidence that the writers had Elena react so differently toward the same character (Kat) depending on which brother she was around. napoli I'm totally feeling what you are throwing out there with Elena characterization and the writers consistency with that, my hesitance in fully agreeing with the sentiment has to do with my lack of faith in the writers. I already credit you for being far smarter than they are just from what you have already said. The writers can prove me wrong next season by how they approach Elena's character going forward. How self aware is season 6 Elena going to be? I saw their changing of Elena's character as a superficial ploy to legitimize Damon and Elena being a couple and nothing more, just something that fit their needs. (they also altered Stefan's character throughout as the main prop for Delena's exitence... that whole vampires are a toxic species speech, was so NOT Stefan it was killing me because that isn't the Stefan who said "our values and actions they define who we are") A lot of it unnecessary if human Elena was falling for Damon anyway, it would have been far more interesting to see the push pull of a compassionate vampire Elena and morally questionable vampire Damon. Their chemistry was far more palpable in the early seasons, which I thought fizzled when they weakened the characters in order to make it palatable.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 8:52:34 GMT -5
Just finished watching episode 7 (Death and the Maiden), and one of the best parts was Bonnie coming back to life. That's it. Haha!
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Post by napoli on Jun 21, 2014 10:39:46 GMT -5
crimmyj your statement that 'changing of Elena's character as a superficial ploy to legitimize Damon and Elena being a couple' is absolutely true, to an extent. Only a dark Elena would want to be with Damon. A compassionate Elena would never tolerate Damon's behaviour and although s5 was about DE and Damon's journey the writers are still being consistent. In 1x09 Stefan told Damon 'It wasn't real, Damon, our love for Katherine. She compelled us. We didn't have a choice. It took me years to sort that out. To truly understand what she did to us.' Although Elena loves Damon just as it took Stefan years to sort out his feelings for Katherine, Elena still needs to figure out what's going with her and Damon. Steferine was an unhealthy relationship. DE is an unhealthy relationship. It took distance between Stefan and Kat for Stefan to figure out the dynamic between himself and Kat. With Damon being in another dimension and Elena believing him to be dead (just as Stefan believed Kat was dead even though she was not yet another parallel story line) Elena will figure out her feelings and what she really wants. Although a compassionate Elena would cause tension with Damon as we saw s1-s3 and would have been interesting to watch wouldn't make sense to the story. JP said in an interview that human Elena did not love Damon. She cared for him but she would not go there. Had the writers had Elena be a vampire with simply heightened human characteristics Elena would have never chosen Damon. Elena's values had to change for her choice to make sense. Doing otherwise would have destroyed her character. It also took Stefan years to overcome his ripper ways so surely we can give Elena some slack to let her figure out the darkness she has as she is no where near dangerous as Stefan was. In 1x07 Stefan says 'It`s difficult to seperate your feelings. Love, lost, anger, desire, it can all blur into one urge. Hunger.' For Stefan that meant feeding uncontrollably. For Elena that could mean rolling around with Damon. Stefan and Elena's journey have been similar (pure hearts as human and dark as a vampire) but not identical - what would be the fun in that! Even Stefan supporting DE this season is not inconsistent with his character. Stefan loves Elena and wants her to be happy. Stefan has seen this season that Damon and Elena love each other and are miserable apart. Stefan wanting them to be together is for their (DE's) happiness even though Elena is the love of Stefan's life. Stefan is selfless and this is what you do when you're selfless. When Elena chose Damon Stefan told Damon 'I'm not not happy for you' yet when Elena and Stefan broke up Damon said to Elena 'I'd say I'm sorry but I'm not.' The writers are showing the differences between the brothers. Had Stefan been encouraging Elena to stay away from Damon and flirt with her (kiss Katlena at the motel) then Stefan would be no different from Damon.
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Post by demetra on Jun 21, 2014 13:26:34 GMT -5
Such an enjoyable discussion and analysis. I'm totally in Stefan's corner, but I want to offer a bit of shading on the characterization of Stefan as totally selfless. IMO he does care for others. But he also already knows that there have been terrible outcomes both for him and for others of pursuing what he desires, that unless he completely controls every desire, if he follows his true nature as a vampire, death is the result. In 1864 he desired Katherine and followed that desire. He remembered that as not caring what his brother wanted. Katherine turned Caroline because he refused to renew their old relationship. He told Caroline he knew he should have stepped away from Elena -- he just couldn't. He went to Klaus to save Damon -- after Klaus had had absolute victory over him and had killed Elena -- and in Klaus's service massacred werewolves, their families, and the innocent (Andy) up and down the eastern seaboard. Jenna, John, Caroline, Caroline's father, Jeremy, Bonnie, Tyler's mother, and Elena all died after Stefan pursued his desire. My point is -- he is also actively repressing what he desires almost as a reflex at this point. He does whatever he can to moderate or reverse everything that has happened, and genuinely cares for everyone in the gang -- his family. But I think he is becoming aware that there are light and dark outcomes from every course of action, including all the heroic ones, large or even small, for instance, trying to protect Caroline while drastically weakened, or steadying Bonnie when she stumbles.
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Post by crimmyj on Jun 21, 2014 16:37:16 GMT -5
crimmyj your statement that 'changing of Elena's character as a superficial ploy to legitimize Damon and Elena being a couple' is absolutely true, to an extent. Only a dark Elena would want to be with Damon. A compassionate Elena would never tolerate Damon's behaviour and although s5 was about DE and Damon's journey the writers are still being consistent. In 1x09 Stefan told Damon 'It wasn't real, Damon, our love for Katherine. She compelled us. We didn't have a choice. It took me years to sort that out. To truly understand what she did to us.' Although Elena loves Damon just as it took Stefan years to sort out his feelings for Katherine, Elena still needs to figure out what's going with her and Damon. Steferine was an unhealthy relationship. DE is an unhealthy relationship. It took distance between Stefan and Kat for Stefan to figure out the dynamic between himself and Kat. With Damon being in another dimension and Elena believing him to be dead (just as Stefan believed Kat was dead even though she was not yet another parallel story line) Elena will figure out her feelings and what she really wants. Although a compassionate Elena would cause tension with Damon as we saw s1-s3 and would have been interesting to watch wouldn't make sense to the story. JP said in an interview that human Elena did not love Damon. She cared for him but she would not go there. Had the writers had Elena be a vampire with simply heightened human characteristics Elena would have never chosen Damon. Elena's values had to change for her choice to make sense. Doing otherwise would have destroyed her character. It also took Stefan years to overcome his ripper ways so surely we can give Elena some slack to let her figure out the darkness she has as she is no where near dangerous as Stefan was. In 1x07 Stefan says 'It`s difficult to seperate your feelings. Love, lost, anger, desire, it can all blur into one urge. Hunger.' For Stefan that meant feeding uncontrollably. For Elena that could mean rolling around with Damon. Stefan and Elena's journey have been similar (pure hearts as human and dark as a vampire) but not identical - what would be the fun in that! Even Stefan supporting DE this season is not inconsistent with his character. Stefan loves Elena and wants her to be happy. Stefan has seen this season that Damon and Elena love each other and are miserable apart. Stefan wanting them to be together is for their (DE's) happiness even though Elena is the love of Stefan's life. Stefan is selfless and this is what you do when you're selfless. When Elena chose Damon Stefan told Damon 'I'm not not happy for you' yet when Elena and Stefan broke up Damon said to Elena 'I'd say I'm sorry but I'm not.' The writers are showing the differences between the brothers. Had Stefan been encouraging Elena to stay away from Damon and flirt with her (kiss Katlena at the motel) then Stefan would be no different from Damon. Again, napoli you are showing you are far smarter/more thoughtful than the writers! I can only hope that the writers will head the way you are suggesting and while I had your hope with all the "toxic relationship" speechifying the characters did that they would BUT then the last 2 episode took napalm to that and ended up glorifying and romanticizing it. bad form! And while Stefan is consistent in his support for DE because of the happiness it brings his brother and the guilt Stefan has always felt for turning him, I still think the roadside "we are a toxic species" speech was total character BS. That wasn't consistent, that is not Stefan's character at all as he is a character who strongly believes you can choose how you define your life...that being a vampire is what you are but it doesnt define who you are, your own choices and action do. This is the core of who Stefan is, his pure heart, and why we all root for him. That Stefan would never excuse vampyrism in the completely thoughtless and offhanded way he did in that roadside speech, which only was set up to excuse Elena for going all in with Damon. There were many, many ways Stefan could have nudged Elena to get back with Damon, but that entire crap 'we are toxic, when humans have bad relationships they go to therapy vampires just get a free pass', was completely out of character for what he honestly believes. There is being consistent in his support of his brother and Elena BUT not at the expense of his own personality or his own beliefs!! and for me that moment was like Silas was back. It was a waste of a moment and a retcon of Stefan's character that was meant only to serve a couple that we have all determined is extraordinary unhealthy and codependent.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 19:29:06 GMT -5
crimmyj your statement that 'changing of Elena's character as a superficial ploy to legitimize Damon and Elena being a couple' is absolutely true, to an extent. Only a dark Elena would want to be with Damon. A compassionate Elena would never tolerate Damon's behaviour and although s5 was about DE and Damon's journey the writers are still being consistent. In 1x09 Stefan told Damon 'It wasn't real, Damon, our love for Katherine. She compelled us. We didn't have a choice. It took me years to sort that out. To truly understand what she did to us.' Although Elena loves Damon just as it took Stefan years to sort out his feelings for Katherine, Elena still needs to figure out what's going with her and Damon. Steferine was an unhealthy relationship. DE is an unhealthy relationship. It took distance between Stefan and Kat for Stefan to figure out the dynamic between himself and Kat. With Damon being in another dimension and Elena believing him to be dead (just as Stefan believed Kat was dead even though she was not yet another parallel story line) Elena will figure out her feelings and what she really wants. Although a compassionate Elena would cause tension with Damon as we saw s1-s3 and would have been interesting to watch wouldn't make sense to the story. JP said in an interview that human Elena did not love Damon. She cared for him but she would not go there. Had the writers had Elena be a vampire with simply heightened human characteristics Elena would have never chosen Damon. Elena's values had to change for her choice to make sense. Doing otherwise would have destroyed her character. It also took Stefan years to overcome his ripper ways so surely we can give Elena some slack to let her figure out the darkness she has as she is no where near dangerous as Stefan was. In 1x07 Stefan says 'It`s difficult to seperate your feelings. Love, lost, anger, desire, it can all blur into one urge. Hunger.' For Stefan that meant feeding uncontrollably. For Elena that could mean rolling around with Damon. Stefan and Elena's journey have been similar (pure hearts as human and dark as a vampire) but not identical - what would be the fun in that! Even Stefan supporting DE this season is not inconsistent with his character. Stefan loves Elena and wants her to be happy. Stefan has seen this season that Damon and Elena love each other and are miserable apart. Stefan wanting them to be together is for their (DE's) happiness even though Elena is the love of Stefan's life. Stefan is selfless and this is what you do when you're selfless. When Elena chose Damon Stefan told Damon 'I'm not not happy for you' yet when Elena and Stefan broke up Damon said to Elena 'I'd say I'm sorry but I'm not.' The writers are showing the differences between the brothers. Had Stefan been encouraging Elena to stay away from Damon and flirt with her (kiss Katlena at the motel) then Stefan would be no different from Damon. Again, napoli you are showing you are far smarter/more thoughtful than the writers! I can only hope that the writers will head the way you are suggesting and while I had your hope with all the "toxic relationship" speechifying the characters did that they would BUT then the last 2 episode took napalm to that and ended up glorifying and romanticizing it. bad form! And while Stefan is consistent in his support for DE because of the happiness it brings his brother and the guilt Stefan has always felt for turning him, I still think the roadside "we are a toxic species" speech was total character BS. That wasn't consistent, that is not Stefan's character at all as he is a character who strongly believes you can choose how you define your life...that being a vampire is what you are but it doesnt define who you are, your own choices and action do. This is the core of who Stefan is, his pure heart, and why we all root for him. That Stefan would never excuse vampyrism in the completely thoughtless and offhanded way he did in that roadside speech, which only was set up to excuse Elena for going all in with Damon. There were many, many ways Stefan could have nudged Elena to get back with Damon, but that entire crap 'we are toxic, when humans have bad relationships they go to therapy vampires just get a free pass', was completely out of character for what he honestly believes. There is being consistent in his support of his brother and Elena BUT not at the expense of his own personality or his own beliefs!! and for me that moment was like Silas was back. It was a waste of a moment and a retcon of Stefan's character that was meant only to serve a couple that we have all determined is extraordinary unhealthy and codependent. You have a point crimmyj, but time tends to change your perspective on things. Things we did when we were younger, we no longer do now. Thoughts we had before aren't necessarily thoughts we would have now. Sometimes we come to certain realizations about various things in life, including ourselves, and that might have someone saying things they never thought they would. Given what he's experienced, maybe Stefan HAS come to that place in his life where he felt those things needed to be said. Maybe it's the writers way of saying he's changing, and not necessarily a blunder of his character. I just wish they were more eloquent in disaplaying those changes, for him and everyone else.
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