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Post by deb on Oct 15, 2013 15:57:21 GMT -5
Well, first of all, I have to say it's great to debate the show this way. We keep saying we want this place to be a safe haven, away from all the craziness and rudeness out there and everyone here is proving that it is so, great job everyone... Now, answering to all your posts (or, at least, try) without repeating anything what's already been said, specially by napoli in her brilliant post: damonsgirl, when I said she was selfish with Jeremy, I was thinking about that line Matt said "The old Elena would never have left Jeremy with Damon"... But it's just 1 example between many that napoli already pointed out. Anna, we'll never agree in this because IMO Elena was much better before, and in your opinion she's better now... I still can't understand why they would write a tv show where the main character is better when she lost her best qualities (Remember when Stefan said he loved because she was nothing like Katherine, because she was warm and kind and selfless? That's my favorite Elena, the one I liked, the one the other characters liked and the one I think she liked being). Again, I don't think she was chosing her own path, I think she was chosing Damon's path because of the sire bond. Charlotte wasn't crazy, she was sired, that's why she spent years counting bricks just to make her master happy, as crazy as it may sound! Like when Elena said she wanted to be with Damon in the lake house but she couldn't because he told her to go away... She couldn't do what she wanted to, she had to do what her master told her to do... I want to understand your opinion, I really do, but how can you definine Elena's journey from 4*1 to 4*7 as beautiful? She cried, she starved, she attacked Matt, she wanted to die, she was a mess, she felt miserable, and it's not because everyone was telling her what to do and how to behave, it was because "the worst moment in your life is when you realize you've lost yourself" and she realized that. I agree with you about the characters journey being interesting to watch but a journey can be difficult without destroying a character like they did with Elena. Like shoe20 said, they had to make Elena become this person so that she could be with Damon. If you ask me, they could have done it in season 3 without destroying her charater but, back then, I think the writers had to prove us that, even when Stefan was at his worst, she's still able to love him...
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Post by damonsgirl on Oct 15, 2013 15:58:46 GMT -5
Response damonsgirl Deb- What do you mean Damon wasn't selfless enough to let her go when they learned of the SB? What more could he have done? He immediately tried to find a way to break it, He put a hold on their relationship then used the SB to make her leave him at the Lakehouse with JER. In TVD timeline, from when they got back from NO, only a day had passed.Once Damon discovered how to work around the sire bond he never invoked the proper wording to set Elena free. Nandi told Damon (4x08): 'You want her free you have to set her free. Tell her to live her life without you, never think of you again, to stop caring about you and then leave her. That's the only way around the sire bond.' To Charlotte, Damon said the following to set her free (4x08): 'I need to get on with my life and so do you. If you want to make me happy you will (live without Damon), just forget about me. You'll never think of me again and you'll find someone new and you'll be happier than ever. And I'm never going to be happy until you realize that you're never gonna have the life you deserve if I'm in it. Goodbye Charlotte.' And most importantly Damon physically left Charlotte. To Elena, Damon said the following (4x09): 'You're going to go home. I'm gonna stay here with Jeremy and help him complete the mark. I'll teach him how to hunt. I'll protect him and we'll kill vampires without you. I'm setting you free Elena. This is what I want. This is what will make me happy.' When you compare the wording between what Nandi said, what Damon said to Charlotte versus what Damon said to Elena, it's clear that Damon didn't say anything as far reaching as he was supposed to, to set Elena free of the sire bond. And it's not just his words that failed Damon either. Damon also never left Elena. He told her to go home and for a few days they were apart but Nandi told Damon he would have to leave permanently. Damon left Charlotte but he couldn't leave Elena. This is why deb said that Damon is selfish with Elena. In an interview after 4x09 aired Julie Plec stated: 'What Damon could have said is 'Go away, never see me again, stop thinking about me, stop caring about me, go on with your life, go live a happy life.' That's what he had to say to Charlotte when all was said and done. What he instead said was 'Go home, leave this house, I'll do this without you,' so unfortunately even in being noble -- which, it was noble in the moment because he was feeling the guilt of his own betrayal of Stefan -- he didn't quite go full monty as far as what he should have instructed her to do.' www.hollywood.com/news/tv/46127490/vampire-diaries-boss-talks-klaus-holiday-massacre-the-sire-bond-and-more?page=allEven though Damon was trying to do the right thing, he still failed and he failed because he is selfish. Damon had no problem telling Charlotte to go live her own life and leave her but he wouldn't do it for Elena. She chose to go to college and leave Jer with her boyfriend, who she trusts. That is not selfish, its realistic. Is she supposed to give up her life to stay home and look after Jer?
Elena is a vampire versus her brother who is human. Given that everyone already believed that Jeremy was dead it wouldn't be too much at all for Elena to temporarily put her life on hold to make sure Jeremy was okay even if what for a few days. Heck even a week! It shouldn't be a big deal for Elena after all she is a vampire and has literally an eternity to do as she wants versus her brother who does not. I'm pretty sure she was shown to be upset when she killed that deer for food She had lots of compassion for poor April at the funeral/ memorial She selflessly went into the Grill to rescue her brother from Connor. She felt intense remorse when She killed ConnorThese all took place prior to the sire bond taking full effect. Elena was still fighting the feeling that she was losing herself so it makes sense that she was still compassionate during this time. She told Stefan she didn't want the cure if it meant Jer losing his humanity.Elena ended up helping Jeremy kill Kol which was one of the most dangerous things she has ever made Jeremy do so this shows her lack of compassion and judgement and that she is selfish because Jeremy was trying to get the cure for her. She rescued Caroline from the Hybrids and offered to trade herself for her. Agreed. She was distraught when Jer died. This shows Elena's grief and not compassion. There aren't many examples at all of Elena being compassionate while she was fully sired to Damon. Jeremy and Elenas story of how he is not dead doesn't bother me, what else could they say?Let's see instead of forcing Jeremy to take the blame for her own actions of burning the house down, they could have said there was a gas leak, electrical problem, lighting struck, unknown arsonist, candle left unattended...I can go on but I think you get my point. Liz is on their side so they could have had any story where Jeremy was protected instead of as a druggie who faked his own death and is the false culprit even as an accident. Don't you find it interesting she wouldn't even take a few days to help her brother out yet now that she knows about Stefan being in danger she never even questioned leaving Whitmore. Stefan brings out the best in her so her compassion is coming out again. And as you already mentioned Elena was compassionate with Stefan when she gave him the cure. Another example of how Stefan brings out the best in Elena. Response AnnaOkay I knew i was forgetting something in my other post. And here it is.
a) Jeremy again is his own person. He can say no. He can't be compelled. Nobody can force him to do anything. IF Jeremy was really that uncomfortable...do you really think he'd just go along with it all? If he didn't want to live at Salvatore's house, you don't think he'd be staying at Matt's place aka the Lockwood mansion where there is plenty of room. Jeremy loves and trusts his sister so this is why he didn't put up a fuss. Looking back at what ended up happening in 5x01, Jeremy got bullied at school and he ended up almost dying from protecting Katherine do you honestly believe Elena made the right call by leaving him alone with Damon? Jeremy can take care of himself to a point but should he have had to take the blame for the fire when he didn't do it? Should Jeremy have had to admit to still being a druggie even though he was dead! I've already gone through the other scenarios they could have used. b) As we have seen Jeremy can take care of himself. He is stronger than Katherine. (He works out). Back to the Jeremy being his own person. If he didn't want to do it he wouldn't have. Jeremy has always been pushing to be part of things. Right from the start. Damon understands that, Jeremy understands that. Jeremy wasn't able to take care of himself with Katherine. Jeremy almost died! Even though he stronger than her, working out didn't help him when Katherine grabbed the wheel and forced a head on collision. Damon was indirectly responsible for the car accident with Katherine because he told Jeremy to protect her. Damon has known Katherine the longest so Damon should have known that Katherine would do anything, including killing Jeremy to get away from Silas. c) Elena didn't make Jeremy do anything. Again he could have said no. They were trying to be rational, trying to come up with a reason as to why the house was burnt down. Jeremy is a good person. And he watched Elena struggle, himself. How do we know that this wasn't Jer's idea? (i need to rewatch the scene to make a better judgement)
You need to rewatch the scene because Elena is coaxing him to take the blame by helping him practice his cover story. Jeremy could have said no but Elena is the older sister who could have protected her brother instead of letting him take the fall. This shows Elena's lack of judgement and not Jeremy's. Jeremy hasn't watched Elena struggling in recent months. Her and Damon have been like bunny rabbits. I wouldn't call that struggling. Even if it was Jeremy's idea, as his older sister who is powerful because she is a vampire she should have taken the fall to protect him. That's what you do when you love someone, you try to protect them. d) You're right about the headcanon. I will recant the statement. But tbh i didn't say what they talked about so it wasn't a biased headcanon , i just said they talked and from the episode it really did look like we cut into their convo. BUT anyway despite the headcanon, what i said after still remains true. They were mutually broken up, she doesn't owe Stefan anything. It's not about owing Stefan anything. It's about being a decent person. When Stefan saved Damon from the werewolf venom, Stefan did it out of being a loving and caring brother and not because he owed Damon anything. If we only did decent things in this world because we owed it to other people, the world would be a disgusting place to live. So this is my last response on this debate. The sire bond workaround: I see what you are saying when you compare the wording to the Charlotte sire-bond, but, at the end of season 3, Elena made it quite clear to both boys that the last thing she would ever want would be to lose one of them. If Damon was to permanently send her away or cut her out of his life for good then he would have been going against what she truly wanted pre- sirebond, when she still had her agency. Cutting her out of his life would be removing her choice/ agency also. No win situation. He just sent her away from his influence instead. At this point the cure was on the table as well. There was another option to remove the sire bond without removing her from his life permanently. Of course Damon was able to set Charlotte free, he doesn't love her, he loves Elena. Is it selfish? yes of course, but true all consuming love is selfish. Damon was going to break the sire bond at the end of 4x08, it was Elena herself who pleaded with him not to. She understood how the sire bond was formed, Elena also new how she felt prior to turning deep down. That is how she knew her feelings were real, she knew it all along. Her feelings hadn't changed even without the SB. Elena helping Jer kill Kol: I think there are 4 reasons why Elena did this. 1) Killing one original kills thousands thus completing the mark in one go, yes it was dangerous to go after Kol, but they had recently been successful in killing Finn fairly easily and Elena thought they would have Bonnies help. 2) Klaus was threatening to take Jeremy away on a vamp killing spree 3) Kol had compelled Damon to kill Jer, killing Kol releases Damon from compulsion. 4) The SB? maybe Elena thought it would make Damon happy- Bit of a leap this one lol. Elenas compassion: All the examples I gave were all in season 4, post transition. It is canon that the bond forms when the transition takes place. I can't remember any scene in the canon that states the sire bond develops gradually. It is there from the beginning, she was always fully sired to Damon. It is why she couldn't keep any blood down 4x02. As for Elenas judgement, it has been shown that it is poor throughout the series. I'm thinking of the trust Elijah in the sacrifice, trust Esther, trust Elijah again,. Both Damon and Stefan have made snarky comments about Elenas porr judgement/ planning. It sucks. Elena and Jeremy's cover story: I don't agree that Elena "forced" Jeremy to do anything. It seemed like they had come up with a story and were rehearsing it. The main story was how Jeremy was back from the dead, not how the house burnt down. I think the story was quite plausible.
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Post by damonsgirl on Oct 15, 2013 16:14:32 GMT -5
Well, first of all, I have to say it's great to debate the show this way. We keep saying we want this place to be a safe haven, away from all the craziness and rudeness out there and everyone here is proving that it is so, great job everyone... Now, answering to all your posts (or, at least, try) without repeating anything what's already been said, specially by napoli in her brilliant post: damonsgirl, when I said she was selfish with Jeremy, I was thinking about that line Matt said "The old Elena would never have left Jeremy with Damon"... But it's just 1 example between many that napoli already pointed out. Anna, we'll never agree in this because IMO Elena was much better before, and in your opinion she's better now... I still can't understand why they would write a tv show where the main character is better when she lost her best qualities (Remember when Stefan said he loved because she was nothing like Katherine, because she was warm and kind and selfless? That's my favorite Elena, the one I liked, the one the other characters liked and the one I think she liked being). Again, I don't think she was chosing her own path, I think she was chosing Damon's path because of the sire bond. Charlotte wasn't crazy, she was sired, that's why she spent years counting bricks just to make her master happy, as crazy as it may sound! Like when Elena said she wanted to be with Damon in the lake house but she couldn't because he told her to go away... She couldn't do what she wanted to, she had to do what her master told her to do... I want to understand your opinion, I really do, but how can you definine Elena's journey from 4*1 to 4*7 as beautiful? She cried, she starved, she attacked Matt, she wanted to die, she was a mess, she felt miserable, and it's not because everyone was telling her what to do and how to behave, it was because "the worst moment in your life is when you realize you've lost yourself" and she realized that. I agree with you about the characters journey being interesting to watch but a journey can be difficult without destroying a character like they did with Elena. Like shoe20 said, they had to make Elena become this person so that she could be with Damon. If you ask me, they could have done it in season 3 without destroying her charater but, back then, I think the writers had to prove us that, even when Stefan was at his worst, she's still able to love him... Just to add this because Deb posted just before me, Your right, Elena has lost herself, she died and became a vampire. She is different to the human girl in seasons 1-3. Her basic nature is to feed on human blood which is completely alien to her. She was miserable and a mess and she fought against her new basic nature for a long while, but now I think she is comming to terms with it. In 4x23 is a good example of this when she gave the cure to Stefan. She realised she didn't need it as much as him, Stefan is still comming to terms with his vampirism after 146 yrs. Out of everyone, Stefan has found being a vamp the hardest. Elena is still on a journey, in the shows timeline she has not been a vamp very long so i am willing to cut her slack if she makes a few mistakes along the way. This has been a fun debate, and I agree everyone has put there thoughts across in a non threatening/ agressive way which is truly refreshing, and makes it all the more enjoyable.
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Post by napoli on Oct 15, 2013 17:53:19 GMT -5
Response damonsgirl
The sire bond workaround: I see what you are saying when you compare the wording to the Charlotte sire-bond, but, at the end of season 3, Elena made it quite clear to both boys that the last thing she would ever want would be to lose one of them. If Damon was to permanently send her away or cut her out of his life for good then he would have been going against what she truly wanted pre- sirebond, when she still had her agency. Cutting her out of his life would be removing her choice/ agency also. No win situation. He just sent her away from his influence instead. At this point the cure was on the table as well. There was another option to remove the sire bond without removing her from his life permanently.Yes, Elena did say at that about Stefan and Damon but ONE of Elena's decisions is not above all other decisions Elena would make for, potentially, the rest of her life. Damon doesn't have the right to make that decision for Elena. You mention the cure was another avenue for Damon to break the sire bond yet once Damon had the cure in his hand he said to Ric 'What am I supposed to do with this?' Damon had no clue that the sire bond was already broken and was still uninterested in giving Elena her free will back. Of course Damon was able to set Charlotte free, he doesn't love her, he loves Elena. Is it selfish? yes of course, but true all consuming love is selfish. Agree, Damon is selfish and their love is an all consuming selfish love. Damon was going to break the sire bond at the end of 4x08, it was Elena herself who pleaded with him not to. She understood how the sire bond was formed, Elena also new how she felt prior to turning deep down. That is how she knew her feelings were real, she knew it all along. Her feelings hadn't changed even without the SB. Julie Plec explained otherwise: "The bottom line is that Elena as a human made a very, very, very clear choice that she would love Stefan always and forever," she says. "But then her entire life turned upside down, and any feelings she originally had for Damon were still there, and of course magnified. There was always going to be a little bit of a confusion there for her -- but not enough confusion for her to be over Stefan. It would take a lot to rip Elena away from loving Stefan. It would take years and seasons. We'd be eighty, if we followed the natural progression of that relationship." blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2013/05/the-vampire-diaries-julie-plec-talks-sire-bond----did-it-tear-damon-and-elena-apart-or-push-them-tog.htmlWith the focus on '...not enough confusion for her to be over Stefan.' The nature of the sire bond took Elena's choices away and heightened her feelings for Damon and Damon knew this but as we've already agreed Damon is selfish. Elena helping Jer kill Kol: I think there are 4 reasons why Elena did this. 1) Killing one original kills thousands thus completing the mark in one go, yes it was dangerous to go after Kol, but they had recently been successful in killing Finn fairly easily and Elena thought they would have Bonnies help. 2) Klaus was threatening to take Jeremy away on a vamp killing spree 3) Kol had compelled Damon to kill Jer, killing Kol releases Damon from compulsion. 4) The SB? maybe Elena thought it would make Damon happy- Bit of a leap this one lol.
It doesn't matter why she wanted to kill Kol but rather it shows that even though she specifically said at the beginning that she didn't want Jeremy to hunt vamps if his life was in danger, she changed her tune once Damon was on board with the plan so it shows how her compassion is diminished by allowing Jeremy to be part of this dangerous pursuit. Elenas compassion: All the examples I gave were all in season 4, post transition. It is canon that the bond forms when the transition takes place. I can't remember any scene in the canon that states the sire bond develops gradually. It is there from the beginning, she was always fully sired to Damon. It is why she couldn't keep any blood down 4x02. As for Elenas judgement, it has been shown that it is poor throughout the series. I'm thinking of the trust Elijah in the sacrifice, trust Esther, trust Elijah again,. Both Damon and Stefan have made snarky comments about Elenas porr judgement/ planning. It sucks.We were never shown how the sire bond affected Charlotte at the beginning but only after time had passed. There is a precedent that the sire bond can be fought off as Tyler tried to do so in s3 with Klaus so it is possible that Elena was able to fight off the sire bond to a certain extent until Damon saved her when she was under the Hunters' Curse. It could also be that as time went on and as more commands were issued such as 'don't trust Stefan' that the sheer number of commands are what overtook Elena's personality. While at the lakehouse Elena mentioned that her time with Stefan there was now barely a memory. This phrase implies that as time goes on even Elena's memories were being affected. When Elena and Damon were eating from students at the frat party she was thoroughly enjoying herself until Bonnie caught her attention and then Elena went from having a great time to feeling exceptionally guilty about what she did. She even said it was a mistake to do this with Damon and that she should be there with Stefan. This scene shows that there was still some part of Elena that was fighting the effects of the sire bond. With Elijah and the sacrifice we don't know whether or not it sucked because Damon ruined the plan (potion) Elijah had to protect her when he fed her his blood without her consent. Trusting Esther was a bad call on all of them. Elena wasn't the only one who trusted her. They all agreed to the plan to kill the originals until they realized that the whole vamp bloodline would be gone too. I'm not sure what other scene you mean with Elijah but it was Elena's good instincts (and Stefan's) that got John Gilbert involved to save her from the sacrifice in s2. Elena and Jeremy's cover story: I don't agree that Elena "forced" Jeremy to do anything. It seemed like they had come up with a story and were rehearsing it. The main story was how Jeremy was back from the dead, not how the house burnt down. I think the story was quite plausible.We're not debating the plausibility of the story but rather how crappy (not compassionate) Elena is for letting Jeremy take the fall for something that happened while he was dead. Not once did Elena offer to shoulder responsibility for something she did while Jeremy was rehearsing the story. He died trying to help her and now he has to take the blame for her mistakes. Elena could of done a much better job of protecting her brother especially since she has the ability to compel and has Liz on their side.
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Post by damonsgirl on Oct 15, 2013 19:22:23 GMT -5
Napoli: Damon did not have the right to send her away against her will either by your reasoning. Like I said, It was a no win situation for Damon. Elena states clearly " I was ready to fight you on this but now every bone in my body is telling me to leave you". She was leaving against her will. If Elena had free will, she would have loved Damon, there is no sire bond now, and she loves Damon. As for being uninterested in giving Elena the cure, It was the first thing he did when they had a moment alone. He didn't want her to take it, he told her that earlier in the series, but he wanted her to have it for her sake, because he knew she wanted it. Another interesting thing to debate is Elenas reasons for not wanting to take the cure. She didn't want to put everyones life at risk from the hunters who were threatening to kill everyone until they had it to kill Silas, until Damons' life was at risk from the werewolf venom. Damon actually called her out on that as well. And since we are talking about free will, Damon was refusing to take the cure. Everyone else seemed to be in agreement with Alaric forcing it on him until Klaus showed up to save the day.
The interview with Julie Plec can be interpreted differently depending on from which side of the debate you come from. I interpret it differently to you because I am DE.I am happy to debate this further if you wish, otherwise I will leave it there. I will say this though, I do tend to take a lot of what JP says with a large pinch of salt because she can and does contradict herself an awful lot.
Tyler never fought the sire bond, He just thought he did. But he still bit Caroline even though every part of him didn't want to. Elena wanted to learn snatch eat and erase, it was the point of the exercise, to learn how to feed without losing control and killing people. She just didn't expect to enjoy it as much as she did. She felt guilty, Damon called it a shame spiral lol. I think that scene was meant to show us how Elena was fighting her nature, not the sire bond. I know the writing of the sire bond was a mess, but I think we were supposed to believe that you can't fight the sire bond. It is absolute until it is broken or the Sire does what Nandi said. Regarding Elijah, he betrayed them all in the end of the sacrifice, he saved his brother. It was also Elenas deal with Elijah to return klaus body back that ultimately ended in her death. She should have let Damon drop him in the ocean as planned. Instead Evilaric found them and staked Klaus and caused becks to take revenge by running Matts truck off the bridge. If not for Bonnie, that plan would have killed Stefan, Damon, Caroline, and Tyler. Stefans Instinct in bringing Uncle John back almost got Damon killed with the dagger of death, Uncle John was working with Kat and Isobel to get Kat out of the tomb. John realised he'd been played and then asked Elena to forgive him John Gilbert saved Elena because she was his daughter, and he didn't want her to become a vampire, the thing he despised the most. It's late here in the UK, 01.20am and I have to work tomorrow so im gonna agree to disagree on the rest.
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Post by napoli on Oct 15, 2013 20:21:12 GMT -5
Response damonsgirl
Napoli: Damon did not have the right to send her away against her will either by your reasoning. Like I said, It was a no win situation for Damon. Elena states clearly " I was ready to fight you on this but now every bone in my body is telling me to leave you". She was leaving against her will. If Elena had free will, she would have loved Damon, there is no sire bond now, and she loves Damon.By Damon telling Elena to live her life away from him and then leaving would have only affected ONE of Elena's decisions. By staying in her life Damon affected all of Elena's decisions and without the cure he would have potentially affected her free will for the rest of her life. I'm not sure how following ONE decision - keeping Damon in Elena's life - is better than than giving Elena her free will back. I prefer Elena with free will over what Damon wants. Previously you mentioned that Damon also had the option of the cure to break the site bond so Damon could have set Elena free properly until the cure was found. Instead Damon kept her tethered instead of temporarily setting her free. Damon took the easy way for himself instead of giving Elena her free will back. It's not like Damon was key in getting the cure. As Rebecca said on the island Damon's only purpose was to give the ladies a nice view of his behind. Eye candy, yes. Necessary for the cure, no.
Elena never said she loved Damon until she was under the sire bond. Elena cared for Damon before she became a vampire. Even when she thought Damon may be dying in the storage locker she still didn't say she loved him because she didn't want to lie to him. It was the sire bond that heightened her emotions for Damon and lessened her emotions for Stefan. That is the nature of the sire bond. Without it, Elena would have never chosen Damon over Stefan.
However, I do agree that now Elena does love Damon. At this point it's irrelevant how she came to love him because even if we agree or disagree there is no going back to rewrite s4.
As for being uninterested in giving Elena the cure, It was the first thing he did when they had a moment alone. He didn't want her to take it, he told her that earlier in the series, but he wanted her to have it for her sake, because he knew she wanted it.
Damon kept flip-flopping throughout s4 on whether or not he wanted Elena to have the cure. After Alaric told him to 'go get the girl' then yes, Damon did give Elena the cure but it wasn't his first instinct when he first had the cure in his hand.
Another interesting thing to debate is Elenas reasons for not wanting to take the cure. She didn't want to put everyones life at risk from the hunters who were threatening to kill everyone until they had it to kill Silas, until Damons' life was at risk from the werewolf venom. Damon actually called her out on that as well.
I'm not sure what the purpose of this is. Is this to show how Elena was less compassionate because she wanted to give Damon the cure even though Silas was a threat to everyone else so the cure would have only saved one instead of the many? If so, then agreed.
And since we are talking about free will, Damon was refusing to take the cure. Everyone else seemed to be in agreement with Alaric forcing it on him until Klaus showed up to save the day.
Since no one can compel Damon except an Original and since Damon is not sired to anyone, then Damon's free will was never compromised. Asking someone to do something or even telling them to do something does not take away their free will.
The interview with Julie Plec can be interpreted differently depending on from which side of the debate you come from. I interpret it differently to you because I am DE.I am happy to debate this further if you wish, otherwise I will leave it there. I will say this though, I do tend to take a lot of what JP says with a large pinch of salt because she can and does contradict herself an awful lot.
We probably won't change each others opinion on this one so we'll leave it at that.
Tyler never fought the sire bond, He just thought he did. But he still bit Caroline even though every part of him didn't want to.
Tyler broke the sire bond by not having gratitude anymore for Klaus. We don't really know the full rules for vamp-to-vamp sire bond but the SL seemed to suggest that there were moments when Elena had to do as Damon asked yet she was still able to distinguish that she really didn't want to do it.
Elena wanted to learn snatch eat and erase, it was the point of the exercise, to learn how to feed without losing control and killing people. She just didn't expect to enjoy it as much as she did. She felt guilty, Damon called it a shame spiral lol. I think that scene was meant to show us how Elena was fighting her nature, not the sire bond. I know the writing of the sire bond was a mess, but I think we were supposed to believe that you can't fight the sire bond. It is absolute until it is broken or the Sire does what Nandi said.
Even though Elena could not stop herself from doing as Damon asked, she still had the knowledge that it wasn't something she would normally decide to do. After a certain point there was less and less questioning. This could have been a result of an accumulation of commands that overtook Elena's personality.
Regarding Elijah, he betrayed them all in the end of the sacrifice, he saved his brother. Yes, bad Elijah but sort of good that he didn't kill Klaus if not both Damon and Stefan (Caroline, Tyler, Abby, Katherine) would be dead.
It was also Elenas deal with Elijah to return klaus body back that ultimately ended in her death. She should have let Damon drop him in the ocean as planned. Instead Evilaric found them and staked Klaus and caused becks to take revenge by running Matts truck off the bridge. If not for Bonnie, that plan would have killed Stefan, Damon, Caroline, and Tyler.
Even if the plan was to put Klaus in the ocean Evilalaric may have still found out where Klaus' body was and the consequences could have been worse. This one was Evilalaric's fault and not Elena's.
Stefans Instinct in bringing Uncle John back almost got Damon killed with the dagger of death, Uncle John was working with Kat and Isobel to get Kat out of the tomb. John realised he'd been played and then asked Elena to forgive him John Gilbert saved Elena because she was his daughter, and he didn't want her to become a vampire, the thing he despised the most.
Agreed. I'm okay with Damon almost being killed by John. The purpose of bringing John in was to save Elena's life. Damon has lived for 165+ years and had it really come down between him and her, wouldn't he have offered himself up instead? Stefan would have and I'm sure Damon would have too. The instinct to trust John was correct because in the end he is the one who saved Elena from the sacrifice.
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Post by Ruby on Jan 14, 2014 23:36:14 GMT -5
Dman wrote this in the Elena Venting Vault in response to deb and @stelene4ever
if you wish to respond to it please do so here....where it is allowed. So my response to this comment..I agree with you Dman I do not think Elena is just like Damon but I do feel humanity off or on Caroline definitely deserved an apology. One of the things the writers said was that Elena with no humanity introduced a very blunt and honest Elena. These were things she probably deep down thought were true and either way she hurt her friend in the process. To Brush it off not caring to address it because she was too focused on her own feelings well was a bit selfish. She showed no remorse toward Caroline for almost killing her and saying all these awful things and I will never be cool with that.
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Post by deb on Jan 15, 2014 5:35:42 GMT -5
When I shared it, I thought she had her humanity on, in this scene. Truth is, I don't remember her ever apologizing to Bonnie or Caroline for trying to kill them, when her humanity came back.
Right now, IMO, Elena IS like Damon. I believe there's a supernatural cause involved, and this is not the real Elena, but you never know with this show... I still have hope, and that's what allowed me not to give up, the she'll have an epiphany at some point in time and realize everything she did since she became a vampire. And, when guilt comes, she can actually regret it and apologize to everyone she hurt in the process.
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Post by Ruby on Jan 15, 2014 9:15:31 GMT -5
When I shared it, I thought she had her humanity on, in this scene. Truth is, I don't remember her ever apologizing to Bonnie or Caroline for trying to kill them, when her humanity came back. Right now, IMO, Elena IS like Damon. I believe there's a supernatural cause involved, and this is not the real Elena, but you never know with this show... I still have hope, and that's what allowed me not to give up, the she'll have an epiphany at some point in time and realize everything she did since she became a vampire. And, when guilt comes, she can actually regret it and apologize to everyone she hurt in the process. She never apologized to neither of them. Mind you everyone gave Stefan crap when he was on his revenge spree right after he turned him humanity back on and fed Elena blood driving down wickery road. I just feel she should have acknowledge what she did and apologized for it and felt guilty or something. The awesome friends that Caroline and Bonnie are ended up just being the ones to understand she did have humanity off so it was basically nothing personal.
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Kiki
Team Stefan
Posts: 2,953
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Post by Kiki on Jan 15, 2014 10:05:20 GMT -5
When I shared it, I thought she had her humanity on, in this scene. Truth is, I don't remember her ever apologizing to Bonnie or Caroline for trying to kill them, when her humanity came back. Right now, IMO, Elena IS like Damon. I believe there's a supernatural cause involved, and this is not the real Elena, but you never know with this show... I still have hope, and that's what allowed me not to give up, the she'll have an epiphany at some point in time and realize everything she did since she became a vampire. And, when guilt comes, she can actually regret it and apologize to everyone she hurt in the process. THIS and Paul Wesley are the only reasons I keep watching... but my patience is not very strong anymore. Elena better has this epiphany SOON
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 10:13:14 GMT -5
Dman wrote this in the Elena Venting Vault in response to deb and @stelene4ever
if you wish to respond to it please do so here....where it is allowed. So my response to this comment..I agree with you Dman I do not think Elena is just like Damon but I do feel humanity off or on Caroline definitely deserved an apology. One of the things the writers said was that Elena with no humanity introduced a very blunt and honest Elena. These were things she probably deep down thought were true and either way she hurt her friend in the process. To Brush it off not caring to address it because she was too focused on her own feelings well was a bit selfish. She showed no remorse toward Caroline for almost killing her and saying all these awful things and I will never be cool with that. Yeah, sorry about that. I don't even know why I went in there. Curiosity I guess. But it just frustrates me when fans hyperbolize Elena's behavior, then draw the inevitable comparison to Damon, as if her actions are so reprehensible that it leaves them no other choice. They constantly take things out of context, and paint pictures of her that are not only unwarranted, but completely exaggerated. Yes, she's done some terrible things (mostly with her humanity off, which "fans" conveniently forget, all the time. Sigh!), and she owes a lot of apologies to a lot of people (namely Caroline and Bonnie), but her actions since "coming back" though questionable, or worse, out-of-character, aren't so horrendous that she deserves the amount of hate she gets. I criticized her (strongly) for standing by while Katherine "died", and I also criticized her for her insensitive remark to Stefan about his traumatic experience. They were not only warranted, but timely as well. She was on an out-of-character slide that needed to stop, or at-least slowed down before she did something truly horrific, without her non-humanity being a convenient excuse. Fans will criticize her -- which I understand, but I just wish they would do it at the appropriate time, and without exaggeration. That is all. BTW, thank you for responding. You seem like a nice person (I wouldn't expect any better from a fellow Cancer. . I know the rules now, so I'll try not to comment there again. (Though it bums me that there's a tread dedicated to ranting about my favorite Character. Slightly disappointed in that.)
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Post by stelena4ever on Jan 15, 2014 10:17:33 GMT -5
We have always heard through the 5 years of TVD that when you become a vampire all your natural behaviours become heightened. So what happened to Elena.
Elena was warm, kind, caring and selfless. None of these behaviours became heightened. If they did, Elena would have apologized to Bonnie and Caroline for what she did to them but that did not happen. That is why I feel she is like Damon in that Damon never apologized for anything he did. Hence, Elena is just like Damon.
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Post by Ruby on Jan 15, 2014 10:38:02 GMT -5
Dman wrote this in the Elena Venting Vault in response to deb and @stelene4ever
if you wish to respond to it please do so here....where it is allowed. So my response to this comment..I agree with you Dman I do not think Elena is just like Damon but I do feel humanity off or on Caroline definitely deserved an apology. One of the things the writers said was that Elena with no humanity introduced a very blunt and honest Elena. These were things she probably deep down thought were true and either way she hurt her friend in the process. To Brush it off not caring to address it because she was too focused on her own feelings well was a bit selfish. She showed no remorse toward Caroline for almost killing her and saying all these awful things and I will never be cool with that. Yeah, sorry about that. I don't even know why I went in there. Curiosity I guess. But it just frustrates me when fans hyperbolize Elena's behavior, then draw the inevitable comparison to Damon, as if her actions are so reprehensible that it leaves them no other choice. They constantly take things out of context, and paint pictures of her that are not only unwarranted, but completely exaggerated. Yes, she's done some terrible things (mostly with her humanity off, which "fans" conveniently forget, all the time. Sigh!), and she owes a lot of apologies to a lot of people (namely Caroline and Bonnie), but her actions since "coming back" though questionable, or worse, out-of-character, aren't so horrendous that she deserves the amount of hate she gets. I criticized her (strongly) for standing by while Katherine "died", and I also criticized her for her insensitive remark to Stefan about his traumatic experience. They were not only warranted, but timely as well. She was on an out-of-character slide that needed to stop, or at-least slowed down before she did something truly horrific, without her non-humanity being a convenient excuse. Fans will criticize her -- which I understand, but I just wish they would do it at the appropriate time, and without exaggeration. That is all. BTW, thank you for responding. You seem like nice person (I wouldn't expect any better from a fellow Cancer. . I know the rules now, so I'll try not to comment there again. (Though it bums me that there's a tread dedicated to ranting about my favorite Character. Slightly disappointed in that.) It's totally understandable @dman24 =) I used to feel the same way at my former board where stefan was always criticized for everything. It was hard to see every thread I went into. That's why we try to have members vent in that specific thread or in debates of course. Elena hasn't been that bad but she's had her moments where many of us want to ring her neck. Like stelena4ever said all her natural characteristics were suppose to be heightened egged she turned yet we discovered that many weren't shown. This means either stefan was the one that brought this out of her or she was just trying to be that way because of stefan. With Damon she is a bit more drawn to the way he is because she loves him but at the end where is the real Elena. That's where many of us wonder and although I do not think it's due to supernatural force anymore I wonder if she realizes she has changed.
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Post by deb on Jan 15, 2014 10:38:09 GMT -5
When I shared it, I thought she had her humanity on, in this scene. Truth is, I don't remember her ever apologizing to Bonnie or Caroline for trying to kill them, when her humanity came back. Right now, IMO, Elena IS like Damon. I believe there's a supernatural cause involved, and this is not the real Elena, but you never know with this show... I still have hope, and that's what allowed me not to give up, the she'll have an epiphany at some point in time and realize everything she did since she became a vampire. And, when guilt comes, she can actually regret it and apologize to everyone she hurt in the process. THIS and Paul Wesley are the only reasons I keep watching... but my patience is not very strong anymore. Elena better has this epiphany SOON Maybe in total eclipse of the heart(513) ? @dman24, we have places to vent about almost everyone and everything: Damon, Stefan, Elena, the writers, the episodes... And, we can create more if someone feels the need to vent about something without hurting anyone's feelings. You know, sometimes, we just need to criticize and, IMO, Elena was probably the character that changed more in the whole show, for the worse, so it's normal that we need to vent about her... Interesting, Ruby, very very interesting, I had never thought about the possibility of Stefan being the one that brought the caring selfless Elena and this isn't who she really is... But, remember when he was "stalking" her for months to make sure that she wasn't Katherine? She didn't know Stefan by then and I'm sure that if the season 4/5 Elena was the real Elena, he wouldn't have stayed and know her...
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Post by Ruby on Jan 15, 2014 10:52:36 GMT -5
deb well I feel Elena has a mixture of both qualities that Damon and stefan have. Don't we all? Good and bad or wanting to be selfish at times... I just feel stefan brought out the more good from her and with Damon she's learned to be ok with being a bit selfish or the acceptance of being a vampire. I feel shes still there but has allowed certain things with Damon to be acceptable in her life because she loves him. This is what Damon has noticed. He doesn't want to change her.
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