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Post by katvolley13 on Nov 19, 2014 23:36:54 GMT -5
What no way not even close damon used caroline and abused her. Stefen actually liked ivy and ivy liked stefen.
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Post by wondersnevercease on Nov 20, 2014 0:40:09 GMT -5
You will recall that Caroline was not compelled to go to bed with Damon either. She went home with him willingly for sex. Yes, he fed off of her. Stefan fed off of many. Did Damon compel her to have sex beyond that? We've not been shown that to be true. One might assume, but one can assume as well that she went on her merry way with her planned conquering of a Salvatore, unaware Damon was feeding on her due to compulsion. Please do not ask me to believe that single line that Ivy took as a joke was actually Stefan's genuine attempt at revealing who he was to her? That was double-deception by not following that comment up with a real discussion. He so very much lied to her - and that wasn't their first romp in the hay. Stefan didn't compel Ivy, he deceived her which simply denies her the ability to make an informed decision on who she has agreed to have sex with. He might as well have compelled her to avoid the ultimate betrayal she felt. This flimsy quickly dissolving "difference" between Damon & Stefan no longer holds water. Damon has regretted many of his actions, shown deep remorse, and has taken viable steps to right wrongs. Stefan has committed wrongs without remorse also. They are so much alike with exception that one is fooling himself and expects others to believe it too, and the other knows there is no excuse for either of their actions and deals with it accordingly in a more cerebral less emotional manner, but he is trying to evolve and it isn't simply for Elena. If that were the case, he wouldn't have saved Liz, etc., and Bonnie wouldn't have faith in him. She knows his heart even if he opts not to wear it on his sleeve. Stefan and Damon are halves of the same whole. I love when fans of the show rather than working with what is known (ie what is given to us on screen) opt with dealing in assumptions to suit their needs (making up things that happened off screen that wasn't even implied in the scene). Ivy wasn't compelled by Stefan, if she was the writers would have included something to signify that she was, they didn't. I mean, hell, Stefan didn't even compel his boss to give him a raise or to stop being a pooptacular boss. Stefan was eating with blood bags. Stefan straight up said he was a vampire, and was met with the incredulous scoff I think most vampires in the TVD world would receive because people do not believe vampires exist, as Ivy didn't believe they existed ergo brushing off the notion. We know from previous seasons that this isn't the sort of revelation that makes humans instantly go, "A vampire you say, please go on, as I remain calm even though you just gave me information that forever alters how I view the world." If you want to paint Stefan's very short relationship with Ivy as filled with deception because he didn't tell her his entire life story and background in the short period of time they were together then the beginnings of ALL RELATIONSHIPS START OFF AS DECEPTIONS. Do we spill everything about ourselves at first sight, at first date? Revealing oneself comes with trust, and that can depend on the individual. Stefan was simply trying to live a simple human life which was never going to happen because he isn't human. But as a vampire in a human world you can't just live out in the open as you are either. This ain't True Blood, there is no synthetic blood drinks allowing vampires to out themselves among the non-supernaturals. Because of that it creates very guarded personas for vampires because of the risk associated with the world knowing the truth of their existence. You want to create a false equivalency between Damon and Stefan because its the classic canard of building up your chosen character by tearing down another. Stefan and Damon are complex characters in a world in which their existence as vampires automatically make them teetering on the shakiest of moral ground. But who they are and their personalities are quite different even though the story has allowed them both to take turns being both the protagonist or antagonist. The personalities they exhibit are just amplified versions of who they were as humans. Which the show has made pains to portray them as a vampire Cain and Abel. Damon was an emotional and impulsive human, which put him at odds with his father. Stefan was steadfast, controlled, and honorable, which made him a favorite of his father. Their father's treatment of each as individuals shaped the vampires that they are and the lives they have lead both as humans and vampires. Were they are alike is their love for each other. There is always going to be a difference between them because their personalities are unique, their experiences of what shaped them are unique. A lot of it is basic psychology, Damon craves the attention and love he never received from his father even if it often means acting out negatively to do so, Stefan craves approval from doing the right thing because of desiring the love he received from the admiration of his father, that a loss of control leaves him confused and alone. They need each other to heal those wounds because they existed long before the Katherines and Elenas of the world. They were merely catalysts that deepened existing chasms. And because of those differences in character their reactions and actions can't be compared for who is worst than who. You put them both is similar scenarios and every time they will act as different as the individuals they are. It doesn't make one worse than the other, it makes them different, which makes their intent different. Damon chose Caroline, because of her close proximity to both Elena and the circle Stefan now socialized in. While Damon's looks and Caroline's own low self esteem issues at that time may have led her to willingly accept sex from Damon, she never willingly accepted being his blood supplier. And once she saw what Damon really was, she was terrified and tried to escape, he physically assaulted her to prevent her from leaving, then fed on her (mind you didn't compel her until AFTER he fed on her at that moment leaving her screaming in fear), then he repeated this as evidenced by marks all over her person in further episodes. After that any sex that occurred is no longer consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to compel her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is taking away her facilities to make her own choices. And he also compels her to spy on and cause rifts between Stefan and Elena. To in any way compare that experience between Damon and Caroline to the experience had between Stefan and Ivy is not only a false equivalence but intellectually dishonest. I'm not saying overall this makes Stefan better or Damon worse...I am strictly talking about comparing those 2 relationships as remotely equal is genuinely false and dishonest. The intention behind both relationship isn't even in the same ballpark. The intent of actions is infinitely important in much of these scenarios. This would be a whole different conversation if Damon's intent with Caroline was just to have a sexual relationship, and she accidentally discovered his vampy secret and his subsequent behavior and compulsion to her was driven by his own fear for his safety and for Caroline's. But his intent was shown as malicious from its onset, as he was intending on using her to do harm to others. Sorry for the lengthiness guys, felt prosecutorial and lawlerly. Do we need a litigation thread? crimmyj: I love when fans of the show rather than working with what is known (ie what is given to us on screen) opt with dealing in assumptions to suit their needs (making up things that happened off screen that wasn't even implied in the scene). Nice response, crimmyj. Exactly what fabrication are you referring to here. I at no point indicated Stefan compelled Ivy. You are using Kiki’s words, not mine. It was a misinterpretation you are now bringing forward. So, let me say I love it when someone responds to posts without understanding the context or the posts prior.
Ivy wasn't compelled by Stefan, if she was the writers would have included something to signify that she was, they didn't. I mean, hell, Stefan didn't even compel his boss to give him a raise or to stop being a pooptacular boss. Stefan was eating with blood bags. Yes, as I said, we are all aware of that. Is “pooptacular” a legal term, Esq.?Stefan straight up said he was a vampire, and was met with the incredulous scoff I think most vampires in the TVD world would receive because people do not believe vampires exist, as Ivy didn't believe they existed ergo brushing off the notion. We know from previous seasons that this isn't the sort of revelation that makes humans instantly go, "A vampire you say, please go on, as I remain calm even though you just gave me information that forever alters how I view the world." Nothing straight up about it. So I am to understand you are laying the onus on human Ivy to ferret out the truth from vampire Stefan’s abrupt statement bereft of substance on the topic? An “incredulous scoff” was enough to waylay his laser-point pure intentions of coming clean? That was cowardly. If he wanted her to know the truth, he would have made her understand in that moment in good faith. Why bring it up like a limp wave and cower away from the subject so quickly?
If you want to paint Stefan's very short relationship with Ivy as filled with deception because he didn't tell her his entire life story and background in the short period of time they were together then the beginnings of ALL RELATIONSHIPS START OFF AS DECEPTIONS. Do we spill everything about ourselves at first sight, at first date? Revealing oneself comes with trust, and that can depend on the individual. That is overstating and, to use your phrase, intellectually dishonest. Of course we all start relationships doling out snippets of information about ourselves to each other. However, there are major life circumstances that probably should be spoken of prior to taking a relationship to certain levels so that the individual has the option of moving on should they not be able to accept it. Some examples may be a felony criminal record, perhaps being on a child molester registry, maybe a sex change would qualify, and certainly “I’m a vampire…no, look at me – I seriously am a vampire.” would fit right in with full disclosure.
Stefan was simply trying to live a simple human life which was never going to happen because he isn't human. But as a vampire in a human world you can't just live out in the open as you are either. This ain't True Blood, there is no synthetic blood drinks allowing vampires to out themselves among the non-supernaturals. Because of that it creates very guarded personas for vampires because of the risk associated with the world knowing the truth of their existence. That is true and Stefan would appreciate this smoothing over and assuaging his sense of culpability, but the fact remains that no matter what his vampiric hurdles, his actions remain untenable and speak of a self-centeredness and blatant dishonesty by gaping omission.
You want to create a false equivalency between Damon and Stefan because its the classic canard of building up your chosen character by tearing down another. I am pondering this as I know it is a common complaint of people who see Stefan as purely a victim of his circumstances who is endlessly trying to rise above. It is true that, given the cards any of these characters have been dealt, functioning at all in the human world would be a stunning accomplishment. I don't need to tear Stefan down to build Damon up. I need to address Stefan and his actions separately.
Stefan and Damon are complex characters in a world in which their existence as vampires automatically make them teetering on the shakiest of moral ground. But who they are and their personalities are quite different even though the story has allowed them both to take turns being both the protagonist or antagonist. The personalities they exhibit are just amplified versions of who they were as humans. Which the show has made pains to portray them as a vampire Cain and Abel. Damon was an emotional and impulsive human, which put him at odds with his father. You are breaking your own rule here. Was it emotion and impulsiveness that was the problem here? Do we really know the complete 25 year history between this father and son? Stefan was steadfast, controlled, and honorable, which made him a favorite of his father. Again, your perception. Others may see Stefan in this carnation as weak-minded, controllable, and lacking the knowledge or curiosity to investigate and discern what honor means, what is worthy of defending. Others may see him as adopting blindly what his authoritarian father wished him to, making him the golden child.
Their father's treatment of each as individuals shaped the vampires that they are and the lives they have lead both as humans and vampires. Were they are alike is their love for each other. There is always going to be a difference between them because their personalities are unique, their experiences of what shaped them are unique. A lot of it is basic psychology, Damon craves the attention and love he never received from his father even if it often means acting out negatively to do so, Okay. Cool.Stefan craves approval from doing the right thing because of desiring the love he received from the admiration of his father, that a loss of control leaves him confused and alone. Perhaps the “right thing” is a chameleon in Stefan’s world. Never quite defined because he may have never owned his own parameters; they were set for him and he can’t fathom why his efforts don’t yield results. Thus, he can view his actions through a kinder lens time and time again because of this right thing. Doing the right thing should not require reward, you do the right thing because you are morally sound and not as a means to an end, i.e., the love and admiration of a father, or a lover. There is no altruism in a quest for goodness when that goodness is fraught with ulterior motives. It is therefore a pathological need that drives him and that by default obliterates any virtue that is associated with doing the right thing.
They need each other to heal those wounds because they existed long before the Katherines and Elenas of the world. They were merely catalysts that deepened existing chasms. And because of those differences in character their reactions and actions can't be compared for who is worst than who. You put them both is similar scenarios and every time they will act as different as the individuals they are. It doesn't make one worse than the other, it makes them different, which makes their intent different. Damon chose Caroline, because of her close proximity to both Elena and the circle Stefan now socialized in. While Damon's looks and Caroline's own low self esteem issues at that time may have led her to willingly accept sex from Damon, she never willingly accepted being his blood supplier. And once she saw what Damon really was, she was terrified and tried to escape, he physically assaulted her to prevent her from leaving, then fed on her (mind you didn't compel her until AFTER he fed on her at that moment leaving her screaming in fear), then he repeated this as evidenced by marks all over her person in further episodes. Absolutely true. This was played out in Technicolor before our very eyes. We see Stefan behaving in a similar manner while pursuing girls from farmhouses, etc., on the fly. He also often left them cuddling their heads in their laps. Damon was keeping his feeding in-house so to speak. Yes, Damon was more calculating in satisfying his cravings and Stefan impulsive, riding that seesaw between being a ripper and drinking animal blood. We don’t see Damon struggling with his conscience at this point, but we do further down the road.
After that any sex that occurred is no longer consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to compel her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is taking away her facilities to make her own choices. And he also compels her to spy on and cause rifts between Stefan and Elena. Let’s say I accept this premise. It only seems to bolster my original point. Damon could have falsely wooed and won Caroline – allowing her to believe he was human. He could have abruptly slipped in that he was a nightwalker and been satisfied that he’d tried. He could have slept with her multiple times and been annoyed she was there in the morning. I maintain those who accept this type of behavior in Stefan would abhor it were Damon the one doing it. That level of compassion is not afforded him. The result would be the same. A girl. Believing she was having a relationship with a man. Opening her body to him in trust. Then discovering she’d been woefully deceived. The “intent” is cold company. “Remorse” is his comfort – not hers. Damon would do it because he is screwed up. Stefan would do it because he is screwed up. Any sex before revealing Stefan was a vampire is not consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to lie to her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is denying her the ability to use her facilities to make her own choices.
To in any way compare that experience between Damon and Caroline to the experience had between Stefan and Ivy is not only a false equivalence but intellectually dishonest. I disagree. One seems more violent….meaner; but the other is cruel and intensely personal. One wipes the memory from the mind; but the other requires participation seemingly willingly from the woman. I'm not saying overall this makes Stefan better or Damon worse...I am strictly talking about comparing those 2 relationships as remotely equal is genuinely false and dishonest. I beg to differ.The intention behind both relationship isn't even in the same ballpark. The intent of actions is infinitely important in much of these scenarios. This would be a whole different conversation if Damon's intent with Caroline was just to have a sexual relationship, and she accidentally discovered his vampy secret and his subsequent behavior and compulsion to her was driven by his own fear for his safety and for Caroline's. But his intent was shown as malicious from its onset, as he was intending on using her to do harm to others. The conversation would be the same. Having sex with someone under false pretenses. That, sir, is malicious.Again, I personally don’t need to tear Stefan down to build Damon up. I see Stefan’s flaws and struggles, and want to forgive him like you do and believe in the sanctity of those good intentions from the self-proclaimed “good brother”. It would have been easier along the way were he not judge and jury to so many others. Intentions. The road to hell and all…. If Damon is malicious, is it possible it comes from a place of intense hurt? If Stefan is propagating lies and deception, it comes from that same place. It also basically results in the same outcome with innocents being horribly hurt in the process and their proprietorship over their personhood stolen. I maintain both brothers are to the stage where they are genuinely trying and mostly succeeding at reining in the call of their species.
Sorry for the lengthiness guys, felt prosecutorial and lawlerly. Do we need a litigation thread? Double-sorry for the length. It was not my intention to run so long.
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Post by katvolley13 on Nov 20, 2014 8:00:28 GMT -5
I think it is hilarious because damon says "damon" that she slept with him people are now saying oh see I told you damon never did anything to her she wanted to sleep with him. Oh lord jp really just wants us to yell at each other on twitter and tumbler and does not care what we are saying as long ad we are talking about the show.
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 20, 2014 20:29:43 GMT -5
I love when fans of the show rather than working with what is known (ie what is given to us on screen) opt with dealing in assumptions to suit their needs (making up things that happened off screen that wasn't even implied in the scene). Ivy wasn't compelled by Stefan, if she was the writers would have included something to signify that she was, they didn't. I mean, hell, Stefan didn't even compel his boss to give him a raise or to stop being a pooptacular boss. Stefan was eating with blood bags. Stefan straight up said he was a vampire, and was met with the incredulous scoff I think most vampires in the TVD world would receive because people do not believe vampires exist, as Ivy didn't believe they existed ergo brushing off the notion. We know from previous seasons that this isn't the sort of revelation that makes humans instantly go, "A vampire you say, please go on, as I remain calm even though you just gave me information that forever alters how I view the world." If you want to paint Stefan's very short relationship with Ivy as filled with deception because he didn't tell her his entire life story and background in the short period of time they were together then the beginnings of ALL RELATIONSHIPS START OFF AS DECEPTIONS. Do we spill everything about ourselves at first sight, at first date? Revealing oneself comes with trust, and that can depend on the individual. Stefan was simply trying to live a simple human life which was never going to happen because he isn't human. But as a vampire in a human world you can't just live out in the open as you are either. This ain't True Blood, there is no synthetic blood drinks allowing vampires to out themselves among the non-supernaturals. Because of that it creates very guarded personas for vampires because of the risk associated with the world knowing the truth of their existence. You want to create a false equivalency between Damon and Stefan because its the classic canard of building up your chosen character by tearing down another. Stefan and Damon are complex characters in a world in which their existence as vampires automatically make them teetering on the shakiest of moral ground. But who they are and their personalities are quite different even though the story has allowed them both to take turns being both the protagonist or antagonist. The personalities they exhibit are just amplified versions of who they were as humans. Which the show has made pains to portray them as a vampire Cain and Abel. Damon was an emotional and impulsive human, which put him at odds with his father. Stefan was steadfast, controlled, and honorable, which made him a favorite of his father. Their father's treatment of each as individuals shaped the vampires that they are and the lives they have lead both as humans and vampires. Were they are alike is their love for each other. There is always going to be a difference between them because their personalities are unique, their experiences of what shaped them are unique. A lot of it is basic psychology, Damon craves the attention and love he never received from his father even if it often means acting out negatively to do so, Stefan craves approval from doing the right thing because of desiring the love he received from the admiration of his father, that a loss of control leaves him confused and alone. They need each other to heal those wounds because they existed long before the Katherines and Elenas of the world. They were merely catalysts that deepened existing chasms. And because of those differences in character their reactions and actions can't be compared for who is worst than who. You put them both is similar scenarios and every time they will act as different as the individuals they are. It doesn't make one worse than the other, it makes them different, which makes their intent different. Damon chose Caroline, because of her close proximity to both Elena and the circle Stefan now socialized in. While Damon's looks and Caroline's own low self esteem issues at that time may have led her to willingly accept sex from Damon, she never willingly accepted being his blood supplier. And once she saw what Damon really was, she was terrified and tried to escape, he physically assaulted her to prevent her from leaving, then fed on her (mind you didn't compel her until AFTER he fed on her at that moment leaving her screaming in fear), then he repeated this as evidenced by marks all over her person in further episodes. After that any sex that occurred is no longer consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to compel her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is taking away her facilities to make her own choices. And he also compels her to spy on and cause rifts between Stefan and Elena. To in any way compare that experience between Damon and Caroline to the experience had between Stefan and Ivy is not only a false equivalence but intellectually dishonest. I'm not saying overall this makes Stefan better or Damon worse...I am strictly talking about comparing those 2 relationships as remotely equal is genuinely false and dishonest. The intention behind both relationship isn't even in the same ballpark. The intent of actions is infinitely important in much of these scenarios. This would be a whole different conversation if Damon's intent with Caroline was just to have a sexual relationship, and she accidentally discovered his vampy secret and his subsequent behavior and compulsion to her was driven by his own fear for his safety and for Caroline's. But his intent was shown as malicious from its onset, as he was intending on using her to do harm to others. Sorry for the lengthiness guys, felt prosecutorial and lawlerly. Do we need a litigation thread? crimmyj: I love when fans of the show rather than working with what is known (ie what is given to us on screen) opt with dealing in assumptions to suit their needs (making up things that happened off screen that wasn't even implied in the scene). Nice response, crimmyj. Exactly what fabrication are you referring to here. I at no point indicated Stefan compelled Ivy. You are using Kiki’s words, not mine. It was a misinterpretation you are now bringing forward. So, let me say I love it when someone responds to posts without understanding the context or the posts prior.
Ivy wasn't compelled by Stefan, if she was the writers would have included something to signify that she was, they didn't. I mean, hell, Stefan didn't even compel his boss to give him a raise or to stop being a pooptacular boss. Stefan was eating with blood bags. Yes, as I said, we are all aware of that. Is “pooptacular” a legal term, Esq.?Stefan straight up said he was a vampire, and was met with the incredulous scoff I think most vampires in the TVD world would receive because people do not believe vampires exist, as Ivy didn't believe they existed ergo brushing off the notion. We know from previous seasons that this isn't the sort of revelation that makes humans instantly go, "A vampire you say, please go on, as I remain calm even though you just gave me information that forever alters how I view the world." Nothing straight up about it. So I am to understand you are laying the onus on human Ivy to ferret out the truth from vampire Stefan’s abrupt statement bereft of substance on the topic? An “incredulous scoff” was enough to waylay his laser-point pure intentions of coming clean? That was cowardly. If he wanted her to know the truth, he would have made her understand in that moment in good faith. Why bring it up like a limp wave and cower away from the subject so quickly?
If you want to paint Stefan's very short relationship with Ivy as filled with deception because he didn't tell her his entire life story and background in the short period of time they were together then the beginnings of ALL RELATIONSHIPS START OFF AS DECEPTIONS. Do we spill everything about ourselves at first sight, at first date? Revealing oneself comes with trust, and that can depend on the individual. That is overstating and, to use your phrase, intellectually dishonest. Of course we all start relationships doling out snippets of information about ourselves to each other. However, there are major life circumstances that probably should be spoken of prior to taking a relationship to certain levels so that the individual has the option of moving on should they not be able to accept it. Some examples may be a felony criminal record, perhaps being on a child molester registry, maybe a sex change would qualify, and certainly “I’m a vampire…no, look at me – I seriously am a vampire.” would fit right in with full disclosure.
Stefan was simply trying to live a simple human life which was never going to happen because he isn't human. But as a vampire in a human world you can't just live out in the open as you are either. This ain't True Blood, there is no synthetic blood drinks allowing vampires to out themselves among the non-supernaturals. Because of that it creates very guarded personas for vampires because of the risk associated with the world knowing the truth of their existence. That is true and Stefan would appreciate this smoothing over and assuaging his sense of culpability, but the fact remains that no matter what his vampiric hurdles, his actions remain untenable and speak of a self-centeredness and blatant dishonesty by gaping omission.
You want to create a false equivalency between Damon and Stefan because its the classic canard of building up your chosen character by tearing down another. I am pondering this as I know it is a common complaint of people who see Stefan as purely a victim of his circumstances who is endlessly trying to rise above. It is true that, given the cards any of these characters have been dealt, functioning at all in the human world would be a stunning accomplishment. I don't need to tear Stefan down to build Damon up. I need to address Stefan and his actions separately.
Stefan and Damon are complex characters in a world in which their existence as vampires automatically make them teetering on the shakiest of moral ground. But who they are and their personalities are quite different even though the story has allowed them both to take turns being both the protagonist or antagonist. The personalities they exhibit are just amplified versions of who they were as humans. Which the show has made pains to portray them as a vampire Cain and Abel. Damon was an emotional and impulsive human, which put him at odds with his father. You are breaking your own rule here. Was it emotion and impulsiveness that was the problem here? Do we really know the complete 25 year history between this father and son? Stefan was steadfast, controlled, and honorable, which made him a favorite of his father. Again, your perception. Others may see Stefan in this carnation as weak-minded, controllable, and lacking the knowledge or curiosity to investigate and discern what honor means, what is worthy of defending. Others may see him as adopting blindly what his authoritarian father wished him to, making him the golden child.
Their father's treatment of each as individuals shaped the vampires that they are and the lives they have lead both as humans and vampires. Were they are alike is their love for each other. There is always going to be a difference between them because their personalities are unique, their experiences of what shaped them are unique. A lot of it is basic psychology, Damon craves the attention and love he never received from his father even if it often means acting out negatively to do so, Okay. Cool.Stefan craves approval from doing the right thing because of desiring the love he received from the admiration of his father, that a loss of control leaves him confused and alone. Perhaps the “right thing” is a chameleon in Stefan’s world. Never quite defined because he may have never owned his own parameters; they were set for him and he can’t fathom why his efforts don’t yield results. Thus, he can view his actions through a kinder lens time and time again because of this right thing. Doing the right thing should not require reward, you do the right thing because you are morally sound and not as a means to an end, i.e., the love and admiration of a father, or a lover. There is no altruism in a quest for goodness when that goodness is fraught with ulterior motives. It is therefore a pathological need that drives him and that by default obliterates any virtue that is associated with doing the right thing.
They need each other to heal those wounds because they existed long before the Katherines and Elenas of the world. They were merely catalysts that deepened existing chasms. And because of those differences in character their reactions and actions can't be compared for who is worst than who. You put them both is similar scenarios and every time they will act as different as the individuals they are. It doesn't make one worse than the other, it makes them different, which makes their intent different. Damon chose Caroline, because of her close proximity to both Elena and the circle Stefan now socialized in. While Damon's looks and Caroline's own low self esteem issues at that time may have led her to willingly accept sex from Damon, she never willingly accepted being his blood supplier. And once she saw what Damon really was, she was terrified and tried to escape, he physically assaulted her to prevent her from leaving, then fed on her (mind you didn't compel her until AFTER he fed on her at that moment leaving her screaming in fear), then he repeated this as evidenced by marks all over her person in further episodes. Absolutely true. This was played out in Technicolor before our very eyes. We see Stefan behaving in a similar manner while pursuing girls from farmhouses, etc., on the fly. He also often left them cuddling their heads in their laps. Damon was keeping his feeding in-house so to speak. Yes, Damon was more calculating in satisfying his cravings and Stefan impulsive, riding that seesaw between being a ripper and drinking animal blood. We don’t see Damon struggling with his conscience at this point, but we do further down the road.
After that any sex that occurred is no longer consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to compel her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is taking away her facilities to make her own choices. And he also compels her to spy on and cause rifts between Stefan and Elena. Let’s say I accept this premise. It only seems to bolster my original point. Damon could have falsely wooed and won Caroline – allowing her to believe he was human. He could have abruptly slipped in that he was a nightwalker and been satisfied that he’d tried. He could have slept with her multiple times and been annoyed she was there in the morning. I maintain those who accept this type of behavior in Stefan would abhor it were Damon the one doing it. That level of compassion is not afforded him. The result would be the same. A girl. Believing she was having a relationship with a man. Opening her body to him in trust. Then discovering she’d been woefully deceived. The “intent” is cold company. “Remorse” is his comfort – not hers. Damon would do it because he is screwed up. Stefan would do it because he is screwed up. Any sex before revealing Stefan was a vampire is not consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to lie to her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is denying her the ability to use her facilities to make her own choices.
To in any way compare that experience between Damon and Caroline to the experience had between Stefan and Ivy is not only a false equivalence but intellectually dishonest. I disagree. One seems more violent….meaner; but the other is cruel and intensely personal. One wipes the memory from the mind; but the other requires participation seemingly willingly from the woman. I'm not saying overall this makes Stefan better or Damon worse...I am strictly talking about comparing those 2 relationships as remotely equal is genuinely false and dishonest. I beg to differ.The intention behind both relationship isn't even in the same ballpark. The intent of actions is infinitely important in much of these scenarios. This would be a whole different conversation if Damon's intent with Caroline was just to have a sexual relationship, and she accidentally discovered his vampy secret and his subsequent behavior and compulsion to her was driven by his own fear for his safety and for Caroline's. But his intent was shown as malicious from its onset, as he was intending on using her to do harm to others. The conversation would be the same. Having sex with someone under false pretenses. That, sir, is malicious.Again, I personally don’t need to tear Stefan down to build Damon up. I see Stefan’s flaws and struggles, and want to forgive him like you do and believe in the sanctity of those good intentions from the self-proclaimed “good brother”. It would have been easier along the way were he not judge and jury to so many others. Intentions. The road to hell and all…. If Damon is malicious, is it possible it comes from a place of intense hurt? If Stefan is propagating lies and deception, it comes from that same place. It also basically results in the same outcome with innocents being horribly hurt in the process and their proprietorship over their personhood stolen. I maintain both brothers are to the stage where they are genuinely trying and mostly succeeding at reining in the call of their species.
Sorry for the lengthiness guys, felt prosecutorial and lawlerly. Do we need a litigation thread? Double-sorry for the length. It was not my intention to run so long.So I had actually spent a silly length of time (all things considered) on responding line by line, went to start dinner, came back and chrome decided to crap out (which is happening more frequently that I may have to quit you chrome) and I kind of wanted to throw my computer out the window so... have to shorten it to an overall personal theme. If having sex with someone before they fully disclose who they are is some malicious evil that is on par with sexual assault then you live in a stranger world than I do. Me having sex with someone I later found out to be a republican vs. waking up semi nude and confused after being drugged. Stefan wasn't hiding his vampirism in order to have sex with Ivy. No more than Republican guy wasn't sharing his ideology with me in order to have sex with me. I made the choice to sleep with him based on the knowledge I had, which is what most people do. Bottom line, I chose, he didn't make that choice for me. Waking up with no memory of the night before with rohypnol in my system was a violation of my choice and a loss of body. Also with no recollection of who, leaving me vulnerable, confused, and scared, with the nagging sensation that I probably knew the person, saw them in the halls of the dorm everyday, was probably even friendly with them. It even could have been a person I would have chosen to sleep with if given the chance, but I wasn't given the choice. Or maybe it was someone I already slept with and they wanted a repeat performance, but clearly on their terms on not mine (this was the answer). My choice was taken from me. Only years later was the puzzle pieced together. After the first time Caroline slept with Damon then assaulted, and then compelled to forget, her facility to make her choice was taken from her and it allowed her to continue to be abused.
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 20, 2014 20:44:09 GMT -5
A lot of that was personal, it's true. and I do not know what the rules are about what we disclose personally. If I need to delete it, admin let me know. It was my choice to share because of my familiarity with that type of sexual assault. Sadly, it isn't unique at all and far too common a story for many women. And not much has changed for the better as that incident happened 18 years ago.
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Post by napoli on Nov 20, 2014 21:15:31 GMT -5
So I had actually spent a silly length of time (all things considered) on responding line by line, went to start dinner, came back and chrome decided to crap out (which is happening more frequently that I may have to quit you chrome) and I kind of wanted to throw my computer out the window so... have to shorten it to an overall personal theme. If having sex with someone before they fully disclose who they are is some malicious evil that is on par with sexual assault then you live in a stranger world than I do. Me having sex with someone I later found out to be a republican vs. waking up semi nude and confused after being drugged. Stefan wasn't hiding his vampirism in order to have sex with Ivy. No more than Republican guy wasn't sharing his ideology with me in order to have sex with me. I made the choice to sleep with him based on the knowledge I had, which is what most people do. Bottom line, I chose, he didn't make that choice for me. Waking up with no memory of the night before with rohypnol in my system was a violation of my choice and a loss of body. Also with no recollection of who, leaving me vulnerable, confused, and scared, with the nagging sensation that I probably knew the person, saw them in the halls of the dorm everyday, was probably even friendly with them. It even could have been a person I would have chosen to sleep with if given the chance, but I wasn't given the choice. Or maybe it was someone I already slept with and they wanted a repeat performance, but clearly on their terms on not mine (this was the answer). My choice was taken from me. Only years later was the puzzle pieced together. After the first time Caroline slept with Damon then assaulted, and then compelled to forget, her facility to make her choice was taken from her and it allowed her to continue to be abused. I'm so sorry that you went through that.
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 20, 2014 22:26:14 GMT -5
So I had actually spent a silly length of time (all things considered) on responding line by line, went to start dinner, came back and chrome decided to crap out (which is happening more frequently that I may have to quit you chrome) and I kind of wanted to throw my computer out the window so... have to shorten it to an overall personal theme. If having sex with someone before they fully disclose who they are is some malicious evil that is on par with sexual assault then you live in a stranger world than I do. Me having sex with someone I later found out to be a republican vs. waking up semi nude and confused after being drugged. Stefan wasn't hiding his vampirism in order to have sex with Ivy. No more than Republican guy wasn't sharing his ideology with me in order to have sex with me. I made the choice to sleep with him based on the knowledge I had, which is what most people do. Bottom line, I chose, he didn't make that choice for me. Waking up with no memory of the night before with rohypnol in my system was a violation of my choice and a loss of body. Also with no recollection of who, leaving me vulnerable, confused, and scared, with the nagging sensation that I probably knew the person, saw them in the halls of the dorm everyday, was probably even friendly with them. It even could have been a person I would have chosen to sleep with if given the chance, but I wasn't given the choice. Or maybe it was someone I already slept with and they wanted a repeat performance, but clearly on their terms on not mine (this was the answer). My choice was taken from me. Only years later was the puzzle pieced together. After the first time Caroline slept with Damon then assaulted, and then compelled to forget, her facility to make her choice was taken from her and it allowed her to continue to be abused. I'm so sorry that you went through that. me too. My heart hasn't quite reached forgiveness, but I no longer carry the anger.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 23:50:25 GMT -5
A lot of that was personal, it's true. and I do not know what the rules are about what we disclose personally. If I need to delete it, admin let me know. It was my choice to share because of my familiarity with that type of sexual assault. Sadly, it isn't unique at all and far too common a story for many women. And not much has changed for the better as that incident happened 18 years ago. Wow! That really happened? Sorry Crim. Things like that are way too common for my sake. I hope you're better now.
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Post by deb on Nov 21, 2014 7:05:04 GMT -5
A lot of that was personal, it's true. and I do not know what the rules are about what we disclose personally. If I need to delete it, admin let me know. It was my choice to share because of my familiarity with that type of sexual assault. Sadly, it isn't unique at all and far too common a story for many women. And not much has changed for the better as that incident happened 18 years ago. Wow! That really happened? Sorry Crim. Things like that are way too common for my sake. I hope you're better now. crimmyj, I'm sorry you went through that terrible experience in your life No one should have to go through that But, I'm sure it made you stronger. And, I'm glad you can speak about it, instead of feeling guilty or ashamed. Unfortunately, many women think it's their fault. IT'S NOT, it's the men who do this that should be ashamed of themselves
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Post by demetra on Nov 21, 2014 10:35:25 GMT -5
A lot of that was personal, it's true. and I do not know what the rules are about what we disclose personally. If I need to delete it, admin let me know. It was my choice to share because of my familiarity with that type of sexual assault. Sadly, it isn't unique at all and far too common a story for many women. And not much has changed for the better as that incident happened 18 years ago. Very brave to bring that forward, crimmyj. Thank you for honouring us with your truth. I'm so sorry for what you went through.
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Post by aliensoul13 on Nov 21, 2014 11:08:16 GMT -5
A lot of that was personal, it's true. and I do not know what the rules are about what we disclose personally. If I need to delete it, admin let me know. It was my choice to share because of my familiarity with that type of sexual assault. Sadly, it isn't unique at all and far too common a story for many women. And not much has changed for the better as that incident happened 18 years ago. Very brave to bring that forward, crimmyj. Thank you for honouring us with your truth. I'm so sorry for what you went through. Exactly what she said.
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shoe20
Team Stefan
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Post by shoe20 on Nov 21, 2014 12:06:44 GMT -5
First time back sense yesterday...... crimmyj, I'm with the rest of your friends here... really sorry you had that experience to live through.... I also happy your in a place where you feel comfortable sharing that with your friends.....We do have a kinda family here, don't we?.... All I can say is your a much more forgiving person than I'll ever be..... I would have wanted them for "ear-rings" and that wouldn't have an expectoration date.. My whole reason for posting is to shine a light on Damon's abusive attitude towards women, because the series seems to want to romanticize it....... Your story brings that type of behavior into the reality realm, doesn't it. For me that's the list topper in unacceptable male behavior.
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 21, 2014 12:34:13 GMT -5
Wow! That really happened? Sorry Crim. Things like that are way too common for my sake. I hope you're better now. crimmyj, I'm sorry you went through that terrible experience in your life No one should have to go through that But, I'm sure it made you stronger. And, I'm glad you can speak about it, instead of feeling guilty or ashamed. Unfortunately, many women think it's their fault. IT'S NOT, it's the men who do this that should be ashamed of themselves First of all thank you to everyone in this thread for the kindness and support. While it is still not the easiest or simplest thing to talk about at the same time it feels like it happened to me in a different life. Almost like it happened to another version of me. The guilt and shame you speak of deb was absolutely there in the beginning...I was a young college girl and I would party, so there was always that feeling of getting what I deserved. Chickens coming home to roost and all that. Thank god, I finally snapped out of that funk and realized NO ONE deserves that....NO ONE. Oddly enough it was the show, Veronica Mars, that helped me cope with a lot of it as her character goes through a very similar experience. Its amazing how on occasion the entertainment world can actually provide something meaningful that can actually help someone through a really rough time. Which bring this back full circle to TVD... I have to admit my own experiences can cloud my judgement to how I react to Damon, specifically because of those scenes with Caroline. I view those moments through a much different lens than maybe others do. And I can't help that. So it makes me wince painfully so when that "relationship" is brought up as comic fodder, or whitewashed for what it really was. Especially because Damon has never shown any remorse for it or any atonement what so ever. I know what recovery and redemption look like and if that is what they are targeting for Damon's character the writers are way off the mark. It on occasion makes me sick to my stomach that females are in charge of the show running and therefor in charge of the story and they continue to whitewash that incident, when sexual assault is still such a common thing to happen to women, especially those in their target demographic. They have a unique opportunity to shoe horn in some teachable moments here where they could honestly help people (like Veronica Mars and Buffy helped me), but instead they overlook it and it is its greatest tragedy.
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Post by deb on Nov 21, 2014 13:33:00 GMT -5
crimmyj, I'm sorry you went through that terrible experience in your life No one should have to go through that But, I'm sure it made you stronger. And, I'm glad you can speak about it, instead of feeling guilty or ashamed. Unfortunately, many women think it's their fault. IT'S NOT, it's the men who do this that should be ashamed of themselves First of all thank you to everyone in this thread for the kindness and support. While it is still not the easiest or simplest thing to talk about at the same time it feels like it happened to me in a different life. Almost like it happened to another version of me. The guilt and shame you speak of deb was absolutely there in the beginning...I was a young college girl and I would party, so there was always that feeling of getting what I deserved. Chickens coming home to roost and all that. Thank god, I finally snapped out of that funk and realized NO ONE deserves that....NO ONE. Oddly enough it was the show, Veronica Mars, that helped me cope with a lot of it as her character goes through a very similar experience. Its amazing how on occasion the entertainment world can actually provide something meaningful that can actually help someone through a really rough time. Which bring this back full circle to TVD... I have to admit my own experiences can cloud my judgement to how I react to Damon, specifically because of those scenes with Caroline. I view those moments through a much different lens than maybe others do. And I can't help that. So it makes me wince painfully so when that "relationship" is brought up as comic fodder, or whitewashed for what it really was. Especially because Damon has never shown any remorse for it or any atonement what so ever. I know what recovery and redemption look like and if that is what they are targeting for Damon's character the writers are way off the mark. It on occasion makes me sick to my stomach that females are in charge of the show running and therefor in charge of the story and they continue to whitewash that incident, when sexual assault is still such a common thing to happen to women, especially those in their target demographic. They have a unique opportunity to shoe horn in some teachable moments here where they could honestly help people (like Veronica Mars and Buffy helped me), but instead they overlook it and it is its greatest tragedy. crimmyj, just for being who you are, a BIG
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Post by napoli on Nov 21, 2014 14:01:06 GMT -5
crimmyj, I'm sorry you went through that terrible experience in your life No one should have to go through that But, I'm sure it made you stronger. And, I'm glad you can speak about it, instead of feeling guilty or ashamed. Unfortunately, many women think it's their fault. IT'S NOT, it's the men who do this that should be ashamed of themselves First of all thank you to everyone in this thread for the kindness and support. While it is still not the easiest or simplest thing to talk about at the same time it feels like it happened to me in a different life. Almost like it happened to another version of me. The guilt and shame you speak of deb was absolutely there in the beginning...I was a young college girl and I would party, so there was always that feeling of getting what I deserved. Chickens coming home to roost and all that. Thank god, I finally snapped out of that funk and realized NO ONE deserves that....NO ONE. Oddly enough it was the show, Veronica Mars, that helped me cope with a lot of it as her character goes through a very similar experience. Its amazing how on occasion the entertainment world can actually provide something meaningful that can actually help someone through a really rough time. Which bring this back full circle to TVD... I have to admit my own experiences can cloud my judgement to how I react to Damon, specifically because of those scenes with Caroline. I view those moments through a much different lens than maybe others do. And I can't help that. So it makes me wince painfully so when that "relationship" is brought up as comic fodder, or whitewashed for what it really was. Especially because Damon has never shown any remorse for it or any atonement what so ever. I know what recovery and redemption look like and if that is what they are targeting for Damon's character the writers are way off the mark. It on occasion makes me sick to my stomach that females are in charge of the show running and therefor in charge of the story and they continue to whitewash that incident, when sexual assault is still such a common thing to happen to women, especially those in their target demographic. They have a unique opportunity to shoe horn in some teachable moments here where they could honestly help people (like Veronica Mars and Buffy helped me), but instead they overlook it and it is its greatest tragedy. Your judgment is not clouded but sound. Many view those scenes with disgust and haven't necessarily gone through the same experience. It's sad that TVD missed out on a chance to address this behaviour and being flippant about it is gross. It also bothers me to no end that JP calls herself a feminist - she's not.
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