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Post by jennifer on Sept 25, 2014 18:04:37 GMT -5
Guess I'm one of the few here who thought S5 was pretty good. There were episodes I didn't like, and the repetitive nature of Damon/Elena's overwrought love story was too much for me. I had a problem with the middle 5-6 episodes, from the introduction of Augustine through the Kat/Elena storyline, but once I re-watched this Summer, I realized that portion wasn't so much about plot as Damon backstory and the resolution of the Katherine storyline. I'd always wanted to know why Damon transformed from the uptight vampire who drank blood for nourishment, to the guy we met S1/Ep.1. Sage certainly had something to do with it, but the Augustine storyline explained why he had his humanity switch off in the 70's flashbacks, and why he was still very iffy in the humanity dept. S1. Re: Katherine, at first I thought the show made a huge mistake not having Kat die in "500 Years..." After watching "Gone Girl" again, it fit right in with the Vampire Diary theme of looking out for family and friends that Kat finally put her survival second to being there for Nadia. Once you take Augustine & Katlena out of story as plot lines, it leaves the origin story of the Doppelgängers and everything that followed as the overarching plot. While the travelers drove me nuts and I wish Sila/Tessa could've been the major movers for the doppelgänger plot, it was an interesting fantasy idea to explore. The mythology was never completely clear to me though, which detracted from my enjoyment. Other likes: Stefan had a stellar season, as did Paul as Silas and with amnesia. The addition of Nadia and Enzo brought pathos and additional comedy to the show. Liz Forbes better never leave this show or I'll throw a huge hissy fit! Bonnie...what a rock when she could've fallen apart, such a sad ending. Those dream sequences of Stefan & Elena!! More of those please.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 19:05:56 GMT -5
Guess I'm one of the few here who thought S5 was pretty good. There were episodes I didn't like, and the repetitive nature of Damon/Elena's overwrought love story was too much for me. I had a problem with the middle 5-6 episodes, from the introduction of Augustine through the Kat/Elena storyline, but once I re-watched this Summer, I realized that portion wasn't so much about plot as Damon backstory and the resolution of the Katherine storyline. I'd always wanted to know why Damon transformed from the uptight vampire who drank blood for nourishment, to the guy we met S1/Ep.1. Sage certainly had something to do with it, but the Augustine storyline explained why he had his humanity switch off in the 70's flashbacks, and why he was still very iffy in the humanity dept. S1. Re: Katherine, at first I thought the show made a huge mistake not having Kat die in "500 Years..." After watching "Gone Girl" again, it fit right in with the Vampire Diary theme of looking out for family and friends that Kat finally put her survival second to being there for Nadia. Once you take Augustine & Katlena out of story as plot lines, it leaves the origin story of the Doppelgängers and everything that followed as the overarching plot. While the travelers drove me nuts and I wish Sila/Tessa could've been the major movers for the doppelgänger plot, it was an interesting fantasy idea to explore. The mythology was never completely clear to me though, which detracted from my enjoyment. Other likes: Stefan had a stellar season, as did Paul as Silas and with amnesia. The addition of Nadia and Enzo brought pathos and additional comedy to the show. Liz Forbes better never leave this show or I'll throw a huge hissy fit! Bonnie...what a rock when she could've fallen apart, such a sad ending. Those dream sequences of Stefan & Elena!! More of those please. The show isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be; including myself. Fans are just frustrated and disappointed, and when those two things are fresh in their minds, they tend to be more emotional and vocal in their opinions.. With time we all eventually cool down and reassess the significance of everything. Sometimes we still feel the same way, but most of the time we don't. I'm still in that process.
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Post by deb on Sept 26, 2014 5:25:45 GMT -5
Guess I'm one of the few here who thought S5 was pretty good. There were episodes I didn't like, and the repetitive nature of Damon/Elena's overwrought love story was too much for me. I had a problem with the middle 5-6 episodes, from the introduction of Augustine through the Kat/Elena storyline, but once I re-watched this Summer, I realized that portion wasn't so much about plot as Damon backstory and the resolution of the Katherine storyline. I'd always wanted to know why Damon transformed from the uptight vampire who drank blood for nourishment, to the guy we met S1/Ep.1. Sage certainly had something to do with it, but the Augustine storyline explained why he had his humanity switch off in the 70's flashbacks, and why he was still very iffy in the humanity dept. S1. Re: Katherine, at first I thought the show made a huge mistake not having Kat die in "500 Years..." After watching "Gone Girl" again, it fit right in with the Vampire Diary theme of looking out for family and friends that Kat finally put her survival second to being there for Nadia. Once you take Augustine & Katlena out of story as plot lines, it leaves the origin story of the Doppelgängers and everything that followed as the overarching plot. While the travelers drove me nuts and I wish Sila/Tessa could've been the major movers for the doppelgänger plot, it was an interesting fantasy idea to explore. The mythology was never completely clear to me though, which detracted from my enjoyment. Other likes: Stefan had a stellar season, as did Paul as Silas and with amnesia. The addition of Nadia and Enzo brought pathos and additional comedy to the show. Liz Forbes better never leave this show or I'll throw a huge hissy fit! Bonnie...what a rock when she could've fallen apart, such a sad ending. Those dream sequences of Stefan & Elena!! More of those please. The show isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be; including myself. Fans are just frustrated and disappointed, and when those two things are fresh in their minds, they tend to be more emotional and vocal in their opinions.. With time we all eventually cool down and reassess the significance of everything. Sometimes we still feel the same way, but most of the time we don't. I'm still in that process. The thing that still makes me care about the show, right now, is this place and all you guys, Stefan story line, Paul and the little amount of hope that I still have that the show will make me be as excited as I used to be in s01, 02 and 03.
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Post by jennifer on Sept 26, 2014 13:39:45 GMT -5
The show isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be; including myself. Fans are just frustrated and disappointed, and when those two things are fresh in their minds, they tend to be more emotional and vocal in their opinions.. With time we all eventually cool down and reassess the significance of everything. Sometimes we still feel the same way, but most of the time we don't. I'm still in that process. The thing that still makes me care about the show, right now, is this place and all you guys, Stefan story line, Paul and the little amount of hope that I still have that the show will make me be as excited as I used to be in s01, 02 and 03. I hope S6 is a great one like the first three deb. My assessment of S5 a "pretty good" isn't exactly what I want to see in a show I spend so much time thinking and talking about. I don't think the first three seasons will ever happen again though. The initial innocence is gone. The show decided to make a clean break with its past when they decided to burn down the Gilbert house, turn off Elena's humanity and send the Originals away. The end of S4 with Elena choosing Damon, and the deaths of Kat, Damon, Bonnie and everyone on the other side symbolized another transformation for the show. The initial triangle that started the show is over. The current one...who knows? It's hanging by a thread. They can pull it all together for a Stelena ending & a return to MF, but there's no erasing how much was lost along the way to get there, and that the characters aren't going to have the same feel as they did the first few seasons. Maybe my hope is squashed for what could have been. I get what you're saying @dman24, that it takes time for some fans. I'll add that some fans are probably too disappointed to re-assess. I'm not in the business of changing minds. I did feel the need to express another viewpoint though, because it gets depressing to read about how bad the show is when that's not my experience.
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Post by katvolley13 on Oct 1, 2014 20:32:26 GMT -5
It is because the main character is annoying and someone not even delenas like so it is just awkward to watch so it becones a show about nothing
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I527 using proboards
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Post by WondersNeverCease on Nov 19, 2014 13:51:26 GMT -5
I am tired af stefan getting the short stick all the time. I want him to be happy and i reached a point where i don't care anymore who will make him happy as long as he is really happy with no more feelings and sadnes for elena I'm also tired of Damon talking about the woman he raped and the writers just casually overlooking the lack of agency Caroline had in the relationship and treating it as though Damon and Caroline were cute together . I suppose these are the same writers that also ignore the sire bond. So glad they spent an entire season on it just to retcon it. I never expected them to pull a Bobby Ewing like on Dallas. Stefan misrepresented himself to Ivy. She had no agency in this sexual relationship because Stefan lied about who and what he was. She was not in a position to give informed consent because he was lying to use her for his purposes. That is very similar to Damon/Caroline. Deception in Stefan's case and compulsion in Damon's case. Ivy ended up dead because of Stefan. She would still be alive had he not caught her in his web of deception. Damon ultimately saved Caroline with his blood. Looks like Ivy got the short stick. Stefan and Damon have done very, very parallel deeds. Additionally, its been established Stefan carried out nefarious activities with women while he was the ripper. Doesn't appear they all volunteered. Just because Damon appears to be more in control when he loses his humanity doesn't absolve Stefan because he is so obviously out of control as the ripper.
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Kiki
Team Stefan
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Post by Kiki on Nov 19, 2014 14:11:56 GMT -5
I'm also tired of Damon talking about the woman he raped and the writers just casually overlooking the lack of agency Caroline had in the relationship and treating it as though Damon and Caroline were cute together . I suppose these are the same writers that also ignore the sire bond. So glad they spent an entire season on it just to retcon it. I never expected them to pull a Bobby Ewing like on Dallas. Stefan misrepresented himself to Ivy. She had no agency in this sexual relationship because Stefan lied about who and what he was. She was not in a position to give informed consent because he was lying to use her for his purposes. That is very similar to Damon/Caroline. Deception in Stefan's case and compulsion in Damon's case. Ivy ended up dead because of Stefan. She would still be alive had he not caught her in his web of deception. Damon ultimately saved Caroline with his blood. Looks like Ivy got the short stick. Stefan and Damon have done very, very parallel deeds. Additionally, its been established Stefan carried out nefarious activities with women while he was the ripper. Doesn't appear they all volunteered. Just because Damon appears to be more in control when he loses his humanity doesn't absolve Stefan because he is so obviously out of control as the ripper. did I miss something? When exactly did Stefan compell Ivy to welcome him into her bed or offer him her blood? Stefan doesn't need to compell a girl to make her want sex with him. He didn't lie to her. In fact he even told her he is a vampire in ep. 1 of the season. Damon compelled Caroline so she would be his sextoy and bloodbag. He compelled her to do what he wants even if she said she didn't want to do it. Stefan is not flawless. He was the ripper but the difference to Damon is that Stefan feels sorry for what he did and Damon thinks what he did isn't bad but his right as a vampire.
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Post by WondersNeverCease on Nov 19, 2014 14:32:53 GMT -5
Stefan misrepresented himself to Ivy. She had no agency in this sexual relationship because Stefan lied about who and what he was. She was not in a position to give informed consent because he was lying to use her for his purposes. That is very similar to Damon/Caroline. Deception in Stefan's case and compulsion in Damon's case. Ivy ended up dead because of Stefan. She would still be alive had he not caught her in his web of deception. Damon ultimately saved Caroline with his blood. Looks like Ivy got the short stick. Stefan and Damon have done very, very parallel deeds. Additionally, its been established Stefan carried out nefarious activities with women while he was the ripper. Doesn't appear they all volunteered. Just because Damon appears to be more in control when he loses his humanity doesn't absolve Stefan because he is so obviously out of control as the ripper. did I miss something? When exactly did Stefan compell Ivy to welcome him into her bed or offer him her blood? Stefan doesn't need to compell a girl to make her want sex with him. He didn't lie to her. In fact he even told her he is a vampire in ep. 1 of the season. Damon compelled Caroline so she would be his sextoy and bloodbag. He compelled her to do what he wants even if she said she didn't want to do it. Stefan is not flawless. He was the ripper but the difference to Damon is that Stefan feels sorry for what he did and Damon thinks what he did isn't bad but his right as a vampire. You will recall that Caroline was not compelled to go to bed with Damon either. She went home with him willingly for sex. Yes, he fed off of her. Stefan fed off of many. Did Damon compel her to have sex beyond that? We've not been shown that to be true. One might assume, but one can assume as well that she went on her merry way with her planned conquering of a Salvatore, unaware Damon was feeding on her due to compulsion. Please do not ask me to believe that single line that Ivy took as a joke was actually Stefan's genuine attempt at revealing who he was to her? That was double-deception by not following that comment up with a real discussion. He so very much lied to her - and that wasn't their first romp in the hay. Stefan didn't compel Ivy, he deceived her which simply denies her the ability to make an informed decision on who she has agreed to have sex with. He might as well have compelled her to avoid the ultimate betrayal she felt. This flimsy quickly dissolving "difference" between Damon & Stefan no longer holds water. Damon has regretted many of his actions, shown deep remorse, and has taken viable steps to right wrongs. Stefan has committed wrongs without remorse also. They are so much alike with exception that one is fooling himself and expects others to believe it too, and the other knows there is no excuse for either of their actions and deals with it accordingly in a more cerebral less emotional manner, but he is trying to evolve and it isn't simply for Elena. If that were the case, he wouldn't have saved Liz, etc., and Bonnie wouldn't have faith in him. She knows his heart even if he opts not to wear it on his sleeve. Stefan and Damon are halves of the same whole.
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shoe20
Team Stefan
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Post by shoe20 on Nov 19, 2014 14:39:52 GMT -5
I'm also tired of Damon talking about the woman he raped and the writers just casually overlooking the lack of agency Caroline had in the relationship and treating it as though Damon and Caroline were cute together . I suppose these are the same writers that also ignore the sire bond. So glad they spent an entire season on it just to retcon it. I never expected them to pull a Bobby Ewing like on Dallas. Stefan misrepresented himself to Ivy. She had no agency in this sexual relationship because Stefan lied about who and what he was. She was not in a position to give informed consent because he was lying to use her for his purposes. That is very similar to Damon/Caroline. Deception in Stefan's case and compulsion in Damon's case. Ivy ended up dead because of Stefan. She would still be alive had he not caught her in his web of deception. Damon ultimately saved Caroline with his blood. Looks like Ivy got the short stick. Stefan and Damon have done very, very parallel deeds. Additionally, its been established Stefan carried out nefarious activities with women while he was the ripper. Doesn't appear they all volunteered. Just because Damon appears to be more in control when he loses his humanity doesn't absolve Stefan because he is so obviously out of control as the ripper. Let me guess your home site is D-C...close?? I respectfully disagree with the entire post.... There is no comparison between the two events.... First Stefan did not compel Ivy to be his sex toy/blood bag....There's no proof Stefan even fed on Ivy and as far as his deception goes, he was totally honest with her and told her he was a vampire....where's the deception??? There's no canon that Stefan had sexual contact with any of his "ripper" victims, unlike Damon, who not only assaulted those he compelled but their mothers too. lol JP doesn't need any help recon the series with fantasy events, if you have a scene in mind that shows Stefan sexually abusing his victims ...link it... Ivy is dead because Caro trusted Damon's friend Enz-hole.... she of all people should have know better.... If you want to discuss this further, I'll be happy to join you on a debate thread......
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Kiki
Team Stefan
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Post by Kiki on Nov 19, 2014 14:58:19 GMT -5
Stefan misrepresented himself to Ivy. She had no agency in this sexual relationship because Stefan lied about who and what he was. She was not in a position to give informed consent because he was lying to use her for his purposes. That is very similar to Damon/Caroline. Deception in Stefan's case and compulsion in Damon's case. Ivy ended up dead because of Stefan. She would still be alive had he not caught her in his web of deception. Damon ultimately saved Caroline with his blood. Looks like Ivy got the short stick. Stefan and Damon have done very, very parallel deeds. Additionally, its been established Stefan carried out nefarious activities with women while he was the ripper. Doesn't appear they all volunteered. Just because Damon appears to be more in control when he loses his humanity doesn't absolve Stefan because he is so obviously out of control as the ripper. Let me guess your home site is D-C...close?? I respectfully disagree with the entire post.... There is no comparison between the two events.... First Stefan did not compel Ivy to be his sex toy/blood bag....There's no proof Stefan even fed on Ivy and as far as his deception goes, he was totally honest with her and told her he was a vampire....where's the deception??? There's no canon that Stefan had sexual contact with any of his "ripper" victims, unlike Damon, who not only assaulted those he compelled but their mothers too. lol JP doesn't need any help recon the series with fantasy events, if you have a scene in mind that shows Stefan sexually abusing his victims ...link it... Ivy is dead because Caro trusted Damon's friend Enz-hole.... she of all people should have know better.... If you want to discuss this further, I'll be happy to join you on a debate thread...... shoe20 thank you, very well said. And let's go back to the topic which was the next episode. After last episodes Steroline scene I thought maybe if Stefan thinks about his friendship with caroline in a different way now he might change his mind about the romance part. But looks like he had some time to think about it and there is no romantic feeling for Caroline. It doesn't look like she will be the love of his life if it takes him so long to fall for her, doesn't it?
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Post by wednesday on Nov 19, 2014 15:09:11 GMT -5
Stefan misrepresented himself to Ivy. She had no agency in this sexual relationship because Stefan lied about who and what he was. She was not in a position to give informed consent because he was lying to use her for his purposes. That is very similar to Damon/Caroline. Deception in Stefan's case and compulsion in Damon's case. Ivy ended up dead because of Stefan. She would still be alive had he not caught her in his web of deception. Damon ultimately saved Caroline with his blood. Looks like Ivy got the short stick. Stefan and Damon have done very, very parallel deeds. Additionally, its been established Stefan carried out nefarious activities with women while he was the ripper. Doesn't appear they all volunteered. Just because Damon appears to be more in control when he loses his humanity doesn't absolve Stefan because he is so obviously out of control as the ripper. Let me guess your home site is D-C...close?? I respectfully disagree with the entire post.... There is no comparison between the two events.... First Stefan did not compel Ivy to be his sex toy/blood bag....There's no proof Stefan even fed on Ivy and as far as his deception goes, he was totally honest with her and told her he was a vampire....where's the deception??? There's no canon that Stefan had sexual contact with any of his "ripper" victims, unlike Damon, who not only assaulted those he compelled but their mothers too. lol JP doesn't need any help recon the series with fantasy events, if you have a scene in mind that shows Stefan sexually abusing his victims ...link it... Ivy is dead because Caro trusted Damon's friend Enz-hole.... she of all people should have know better.... If you want to discuss this further, I'll be happy to join you on a debate thread...... What Shoe said..... If you do wish to continue please take it to the debate thread....
Wednesday
Moderator.....
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Post by deb on Nov 19, 2014 15:57:41 GMT -5
You will recall that Caroline was not compelled to go to bed with Damon either. She went home with him willingly for sex. Yes, he fed off of her. Stefan fed off of many. Did Damon compel her to have sex beyond that? We've not been shown that to be true. One might assume, but one can assume as well that she went on her merry way with her planned conquering of a Salvatore, unaware Damon was feeding on her due to compulsion. Please do not ask me to believe that single line that Ivy took as a joke was actually Stefan's genuine attempt at revealing who he was to her? That was double-deception by not following that comment up with a real discussion. He so very much lied to her - and that wasn't their first romp in the hay. Stefan didn't compel Ivy, he deceived her which simply denies her the ability to make an informed decision on who she has agreed to have sex with. He might as well have compelled her to avoid the ultimate betrayal she felt. This flimsy quickly dissolving "difference" between Damon & Stefan no longer holds water. Damon has regretted many of his actions, shown deep remorse, and has taken viable steps to right wrongs. Stefan has committed wrongs without remorse also. They are so much alike with exception that one is fooling himself and expects others to believe it too, and the other knows there is no excuse for either of their actions and deals with it accordingly in a more cerebral less emotional manner, but he is trying to evolve and it isn't simply for Elena. If that were the case, he wouldn't have saved Liz, etc., and Bonnie wouldn't have faith in him. She knows his heart even if he opts not to wear it on his sleeve. Stefan and Damon are halves of the same whole. Are you trying to say that this: Is the same as this? Are you serious?!?
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 19, 2014 16:30:41 GMT -5
did I miss something? When exactly did Stefan compell Ivy to welcome him into her bed or offer him her blood? Stefan doesn't need to compell a girl to make her want sex with him. He didn't lie to her. In fact he even told her he is a vampire in ep. 1 of the season. Damon compelled Caroline so she would be his sextoy and bloodbag. He compelled her to do what he wants even if she said she didn't want to do it. Stefan is not flawless. He was the ripper but the difference to Damon is that Stefan feels sorry for what he did and Damon thinks what he did isn't bad but his right as a vampire. You will recall that Caroline was not compelled to go to bed with Damon either. She went home with him willingly for sex. Yes, he fed off of her. Stefan fed off of many. Did Damon compel her to have sex beyond that? We've not been shown that to be true. One might assume, but one can assume as well that she went on her merry way with her planned conquering of a Salvatore, unaware Damon was feeding on her due to compulsion. Please do not ask me to believe that single line that Ivy took as a joke was actually Stefan's genuine attempt at revealing who he was to her? That was double-deception by not following that comment up with a real discussion. He so very much lied to her - and that wasn't their first romp in the hay. Stefan didn't compel Ivy, he deceived her which simply denies her the ability to make an informed decision on who she has agreed to have sex with. He might as well have compelled her to avoid the ultimate betrayal she felt. This flimsy quickly dissolving "difference" between Damon & Stefan no longer holds water. Damon has regretted many of his actions, shown deep remorse, and has taken viable steps to right wrongs. Stefan has committed wrongs without remorse also. They are so much alike with exception that one is fooling himself and expects others to believe it too, and the other knows there is no excuse for either of their actions and deals with it accordingly in a more cerebral less emotional manner, but he is trying to evolve and it isn't simply for Elena. If that were the case, he wouldn't have saved Liz, etc., and Bonnie wouldn't have faith in him. She knows his heart even if he opts not to wear it on his sleeve. Stefan and Damon are halves of the same whole. I love when fans of the show rather than working with what is known (ie what is given to us on screen) opt with dealing in assumptions to suit their needs (making up things that happened off screen that wasn't even implied in the scene). Ivy wasn't compelled by Stefan, if she was the writers would have included something to signify that she was, they didn't. I mean, hell, Stefan didn't even compel his boss to give him a raise or to stop being a pooptacular boss. Stefan was eating with blood bags. Stefan straight up said he was a vampire, and was met with the incredulous scoff I think most vampires in the TVD world would receive because people do not believe vampires exist, as Ivy didn't believe they existed ergo brushing off the notion. We know from previous seasons that this isn't the sort of revelation that makes humans instantly go, "A vampire you say, please go on, as I remain calm even though you just gave me information that forever alters how I view the world." If you want to paint Stefan's very short relationship with Ivy as filled with deception because he didn't tell her his entire life story and background in the short period of time they were together then the beginnings of ALL RELATIONSHIPS START OFF AS DECEPTIONS. Do we spill everything about ourselves at first sight, at first date? Revealing oneself comes with trust, and that can depend on the individual. Stefan was simply trying to live a simple human life which was never going to happen because he isn't human. But as a vampire in a human world you can't just live out in the open as you are either. This ain't True Blood, there is no synthetic blood drinks allowing vampires to out themselves among the non-supernaturals. Because of that it creates very guarded personas for vampires because of the risk associated with the world knowing the truth of their existence. You want to create a false equivalency between Damon and Stefan because its the classic canard of building up your chosen character by tearing down another. Stefan and Damon are complex characters in a world in which their existence as vampires automatically make them teetering on the shakiest of moral ground. But who they are and their personalities are quite different even though the story has allowed them both to take turns being both the protagonist or antagonist. The personalities they exhibit are just amplified versions of who they were as humans. Which the show has made pains to portray them as a vampire Cain and Abel. Damon was an emotional and impulsive human, which put him at odds with his father. Stefan was steadfast, controlled, and honorable, which made him a favorite of his father. Their father's treatment of each as individuals shaped the vampires that they are and the lives they have lead both as humans and vampires. Were they are alike is their love for each other. There is always going to be a difference between them because their personalities are unique, their experiences of what shaped them are unique. A lot of it is basic psychology, Damon craves the attention and love he never received from his father even if it often means acting out negatively to do so, Stefan craves approval from doing the right thing because of desiring the love he received from the admiration of his father, that a loss of control leaves him confused and alone. They need each other to heal those wounds because they existed long before the Katherines and Elenas of the world. They were merely catalysts that deepened existing chasms. And because of those differences in character their reactions and actions can't be compared for who is worst than who. You put them both is similar scenarios and every time they will act as different as the individuals they are. It doesn't make one worse than the other, it makes them different, which makes their intent different. Damon chose Caroline, because of her close proximity to both Elena and the circle Stefan now socialized in. While Damon's looks and Caroline's own low self esteem issues at that time may have led her to willingly accept sex from Damon, she never willingly accepted being his blood supplier. And once she saw what Damon really was, she was terrified and tried to escape, he physically assaulted her to prevent her from leaving, then fed on her (mind you didn't compel her until AFTER he fed on her at that moment leaving her screaming in fear), then he repeated this as evidenced by marks all over her person in further episodes. After that any sex that occurred is no longer consensual, nothing in their relationship is consensual at this point because he has to compel her to not leave, to not be afraid, he is taking away her facilities to make her own choices. And he also compels her to spy on and cause rifts between Stefan and Elena. To in any way compare that experience between Damon and Caroline to the experience had between Stefan and Ivy is not only a false equivalence but intellectually dishonest. I'm not saying overall this makes Stefan better or Damon worse...I am strictly talking about comparing those 2 relationships as remotely equal is genuinely false and dishonest. The intention behind both relationship isn't even in the same ballpark. The intent of actions is infinitely important in much of these scenarios. This would be a whole different conversation if Damon's intent with Caroline was just to have a sexual relationship, and she accidentally discovered his vampy secret and his subsequent behavior and compulsion to her was driven by his own fear for his safety and for Caroline's. But his intent was shown as malicious from its onset, as he was intending on using her to do harm to others. Sorry for the lengthiness guys, felt prosecutorial and lawlerly. Do we need a litigation thread?
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Post by crimmyj on Nov 19, 2014 16:54:53 GMT -5
You will recall that Caroline was not compelled to go to bed with Damon either. She went home with him willingly for sex. Yes, he fed off of her. Stefan fed off of many. Did Damon compel her to have sex beyond that? We've not been shown that to be true. One might assume, but one can assume as well that she went on her merry way with her planned conquering of a Salvatore, unaware Damon was feeding on her due to compulsion. Please do not ask me to believe that single line that Ivy took as a joke was actually Stefan's genuine attempt at revealing who he was to her? That was double-deception by not following that comment up with a real discussion. He so very much lied to her - and that wasn't their first romp in the hay. Stefan didn't compel Ivy, he deceived her which simply denies her the ability to make an informed decision on who she has agreed to have sex with. He might as well have compelled her to avoid the ultimate betrayal she felt. This flimsy quickly dissolving "difference" between Damon & Stefan no longer holds water. Damon has regretted many of his actions, shown deep remorse, and has taken viable steps to right wrongs. Stefan has committed wrongs without remorse also. They are so much alike with exception that one is fooling himself and expects others to believe it too, and the other knows there is no excuse for either of their actions and deals with it accordingly in a more cerebral less emotional manner, but he is trying to evolve and it isn't simply for Elena. If that were the case, he wouldn't have saved Liz, etc., and Bonnie wouldn't have faith in him. She knows his heart even if he opts not to wear it on his sleeve. Stefan and Damon are halves of the same whole. Are you trying to say that this: Is the same as this? Are you serious?!? Well the person's user name IS wondersnevercease ...indeed. I mean there are many cases one can raise against Stefan throughout the years that would make for a more honest debate BUT this argument is not one of them. Not even remotely close to being one of them.
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Post by napoli on Nov 19, 2014 19:53:19 GMT -5
Just to add everyone else's great responses explaining how Damon/Caroline versus Stefan/Ivy are nothing similar to each other:
Lying about yourself does not take away someone consent. If that were the case then everyone who has sex would be raping their partner.
Damon compelled Caroline which is the same as getting someone drunk or drugging them. Giving someone consent once to have sexual relations does not give consent for every other encounter.
I'm not sure how bringing up Stefan's misdeeds makes Damon actions any less grievous. The writers overlooking the Damon/Caroline dynamic from s1 is the problem. They glossed over this sexually abusive relationship and are now making fun of it by having Damon speak so flippantly about it.
If the writers had Stefan speak about Ivy and their past as though it was something other than a casual relationship then that would be gross but still not as gross as having Damon's rape of Caroline glossed over.
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