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Post by tara on Jan 15, 2014 12:01:42 GMT -5
I don't think Elena had all the "Damon qualities" before season 4 that she does now. The sirebond and being with Damon has changed her. He changed her from the start of season 4. Every other character said how much she changed, but he said "I've never seen you more alive" "She is like me", etc. I think all that is still affecting her. She was more mature back before Season 4, she is kind of acting like a crazy teen now. Self-absorbed and all. Maybe Stefan did bring out the good in her, and influenced her to to be that way. But I don't believe the Elena were seeing now was in her before. I know experience changes people, but she's being the person she always claimed she didn't want to be. *Don't mean to offend anyone or anything, you guys know I suck at debates *
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Post by justgetused2it on Feb 16, 2014 13:33:11 GMT -5
I'm new to this show, I just started to watch 2 months ago, and I like it and now I've watched all the episodes. IMO no one, I said no in this show could be labeled as purely selfish or selfless, specially when it comes to the main characters, Elena, Stefan and Damon. Stefan is labeled as "good brother" and Damon is labeled as "bad brother". Those are just labels. But from what the show has shown us, the "good brother" is actually doing things not less horrible than what the "bad brother" does. so the labels of good and bad brother are questionable. From common human POV, vampires are monsters. They hurt and kill people. It's their nature. To be friends with vampires means that they should compromising their perspectives about good and bad. So basically the rule of being good and bad in this show is actually "as long as you're not hurting my friends or people that I care about then you're good". Elena was a naive 17 years old girl. Her life experiences, knowledge and relationship with vampires makes her change her POV, changed her ideals. Her ability to see the good in people, whether it's human or vampire, is one of her strengths and weaknesses. This why she can see Stefan and Damon as who they are at the core and not get bias by their labels. We have always heard through the 5 years of TVD that when you become a vampire all your natural behaviours become heightened. So what happened to Elena.
Elena was warm, kind, caring and selfless. None of these behaviours became heightened. If they did, Elena would have apologized to Bonnie and Caroline for what she did to them but that did not happen. That is why I feel she is like Damon in that Damon never apologized for anything he did. Hence, Elena is just like Damon. It all heightened, but remember once become vampire, your natural instincts change too, it changed from human instinct to vamp instinct. So you cannot just hold on to one fact and forget the other facts. So can you imagine, if your natural instinct is prey on people but your emotion say not to? it's a mess. Let say that a rabbit suddenly change to a dog, are you expecting it to keep eating carrot and vegetables? So IMO, once you become a vampire, you need to control your guilt, and in order to do so, you need to eliminate some human perspectives about what is good and bad. You need to manage your guilt and not to feel guilty easily, coz if you don't you'll end up killing yourself or become a ripper.
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Post by justgetused2it on Feb 16, 2014 13:43:40 GMT -5
this stelena and delena ships debate will never end. But I guess, it's something to do with a self proclaim "I'm a good brother" that makes many damon stan keep proofing he's not as good as he claim he is. and Damon keep saying he is a bad brother, so Stefan stan keep his claim in mind while Damon stan try to show that Damon is not as bad as he and stefan's stan think he is. LOL
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Post by deb on Feb 16, 2014 17:23:23 GMT -5
justgetused2it, I agree with you, this is a show about vampires and vampires aren't good because they kill people, it's their instincts (weel, except maybe for Caroline but she's like a vampire queen or something, she's too good at it). Stefan and Damon killed thousands of people for the last 150 years. The fact that Stefan ripped their heads off when he killed them, doesn't make it worse than when Damon kills them because they end up death anyway. Actualy, Stefan being a ripper shows us that he has no control, he doesn't kill people because he wants to, he kills them because he's a ripper and a ripper can't stop. I think Damon kills people because he wants to. So, they are both killers and for that reason, we can't say that any of them are good. But, if you compare both brothers, Stefan being labeled the good brother and Damon being labeled the bad brother, aren't just labels. IMO, Stefan is 75% good (he's a ripper so he isn't all good) and Damon is 75% bad (because he did some good things). Here are a few examples why I say this: - When Caroline turned, Damon wanted to kill her and Stefan made her the great vampire she is today; - When Elena rejected Damon, he killed Jeremy. When she rejected Stefan, he just walked away and tried to move on. - When SE were together, Damon never respected his brother, he tried to kiss Elena many times and he convinced her to drink from him. Stefan always respected DE. - When SE broke up, Damon could say that he was sorry but he was not. When DE got together, Stefan was happy for him and now he wants Elena not to give up on him. - When Katherine was in her death bed, Damon wanted her to die with the guilt of killing her entire family and Stefan made her believe that it wasn't her fault. - Stefan never tried to kill Caroline. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Bonnie. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Jeremy. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Tyler. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Matt. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Alaric. Damon did. This isn't a Damon hate post, I'm just trying to explain why Stefan fans think that Stefan is the good brother and Damon is the bad one.
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Post by justgetused2it on Feb 16, 2014 22:08:08 GMT -5
justgetused2it, I agree with you, this is a show about vampires and vampires aren't good because they kill people, it's their instincts (weel, except maybe for Caroline but she's like a vampire queen or something, she's too good at it). Stefan and Damon killed thousands of people for the last 150 years. The fact that Stefan ripped their heads off when he killed them, doesn't make it worse than when Damon kills them because they end up death anyway. Actualy, Stefan being a ripper shows us that he has no control, he doesn't kill people because he wants to, he kills them because he's a ripper and a ripper can't stop. I think Damon kills people because he wants to. So, they are both killers and for that reason, we can't say that any of them are good. But, if you compare both brothers, Stefan being labeled the good brother and Damon being labeled the bad brother, aren't just labels. IMO, Stefan is 75% good (he's a ripper so he isn't all good) and Damon is 75% bad (because he did some good things). Here are a few examples why I say this: - When Caroline turned, Damon wanted to kill her and Stefan made her the great vampire she is today; - When Elena rejected Damon, he killed Jeremy. When she rejected Stefan, he just walked away and tried to move on. - When SE were together, Damon never respected his brother, he tried to kiss Elena many times and he convinced her to drink from him. Stefan always respected DE. - When SE broke up, Damon could say that he was sorry but he was not. When DE got together, Stefan was happy for him and now he wants Elena not to give up on him. - When Katherine was in her death bed, Damon wanted her to die with the guilt of killing her entire family and Stefan made her believe that it wasn't her fault. - Stefan never tried to kill Caroline. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Bonnie. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Jeremy. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Tyler. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Matt. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Alaric. Damon did. This isn't a Damon hate post, I'm just trying to explain why Stefan fans think that Stefan is the good brother and Damon is the bad one. I don't agree if you said Stefan do not have control over his ripper nature. He has control of it but he choose to be controlled by it. His ripper state is a result of failure to control his guilt. When he's not feeling the guilt (when he turn off, or older vampire said abandon his emotion), he has a better control of it. His case with Jesse showed it. He could stop feeding, but then he decided to keep feeding and ripped Jesse head if Caroline didn't came in the right time. And about Stefan doesn't really want to kill, I don't believe it. ALL VAMPIRE LIKE/LOVE TO KILL, even Caroline. Remember Caroline's and Elena conversation in season two (at Jenna's BBQ 2x4), remember Caroline and Alaric conversation (3x18)? So actually, when vampires don't kill or say they don't want to kill, they are lying to themselves and lying to other ppl coz they do love to kill. This vampire nature also confirmed by Elena in her hallucination conversation with Connor. Damon in the other hand has come to the full acceptance of who he is, a vampire, and he does not cover it all up, and he paid the price by having ppl labeling him as monster becoz he doesn't want to pretend. And I think that is why he got sick when vampires judge him of being bad being a monster who like to kill, coz he knows they do like it as well. The only best explanation why those vampires want to pretend to be human is becoz they want to interact and having "normal" human relationship in their live. That's why they pretend to be normal. When the reason is gone then they back to their nature. Don't bring humanity switch as an excuse for a bad behavior coz a vampire have a full control to turn it on or turn it off, it depends if they want to or not. When Elena turned to a vampire, she finally understand what Damon has tried to explain or showed the truth about being a vampire for all this time. Does she like the true nature of vampire? No she doesn't. But she has no choice becoz that's who she is right now. She has two option only, live it and like it or kill her self if she can't live with it. So considering those facts, our judgement about who's right or wrong may shift. We cannot use human psychology only and abandon vampire psychology. I can understand why people labeled Damon the bad one specially when the people he tried to kill are friend of friends. But remember other's friends are not necessarily his friends. Damon only has few ppl he consider as friends. Elena is his first friend, then Alaric, then Liz and Carol. He treat them horrible at 1st season becoz he hasn't consider them as friend yet. Once he really consider them as friends he starts to have more respect and care about them. He snapped Alaric neck in season 3 when he got pissed, but he knew Alaric would come back to live coz he has ring. Was it necessary? no, he could've just knocked him out. Just like he said later to Alaric, he did things he didn't have to do sometime when he got pissed. Base on this consideration about friends, Damon is not worst than the other vampires. Remember when they killed Chris to make the hunter curse on Elena gone? Chris is Tyler's friend, but Chris is not included on Elena's gang's friend. Remember when Caroline killed two of her mom deputies to save Stefan and Damon? Why the killing? Why not just knocked them down and compelled them to forget? They can do that to Liz, why not to those deputies? It's becoz those 2 deputies are not included in her list of friends. Did anyone feel bad about it? NO. Remember when Stefan threaten John at the hospital? John is Elena's uncle later known as her biological father, Stefan threat him becoz he didnt consider him as friend. But what I don't like about that is, Stefan waited to do his bad move until Elena wasn't there. He didn't want Elena witness his bad side. But honestly, when you have to hang out with "dangerous" people in real life, do you really think it's better to hang out with "dangerous guy" who pretend they're good or "dangerous guy" who not pretend that they're dangerous. If it my choice, I will choose the second one, coz I can always keep my eye on them and will not let my guard down just in case they snap. I'm not defending or offending anyone here. It's just a show, ppl have their own fave with their own reasons to like their preference. But when it comes to judgement, it needs to be fair. My point is be consistent with the POV to make the judgement fair. It's needed to understand all characters better.
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Post by justgetused2it on Feb 16, 2014 23:22:24 GMT -5
I wouldn't agree that Stefan has control over him being a ripper. He fights it all the time. He works hard not to be like that. He found a way to survive without letting it control him. He wants to be better and have some normalcy. He has done that. So I don't agree being a vampire is the same for every vampire. Not all vampires behave as Damon does. Caroline isn't like that. As for not everyone being Damons friend? The point is a lot of those people Damon has hurt mean a lot to Elena. So that should mean something to him. He should have more control and not lash out when he's hurt and upset. Between having someone that tries to be better and rise above, and someone that just accepts and continues to make bad decisions, I'd pick the guy who at least tries. Stefan doesn't lie about who he is, and he learns from his mistakes. He tries to be a better man, not just be a "vampire". He struggles and fights with himself all the time to be better. To me that makes him strong and commendable. Not negative. It's not about judging them for what they've done, it's about how they grow from each experience. And their actions after. You should differ the nature of vampire and the personality of vampire. Their nature is to feed human blood. They have urge to kill when they hungry. let me quote what Caroline said in 2x4 and 3x18 2x4: Caroline: God! I cannot stop eating. Stefan says it’s a great way to sublimate the cravings. It’s horrible just fighting the urge for blood every minute of every day. Elena: I know that Stefan really hates that part of himself. Caroline: Yeah and he hates that you’re a constant temptation. Elena: He said that? Caroline: The desire to rip out your jugular every time he’s with you? Trust me, it’s there. It’s why I had to break up with Matt. 3x18:Caroline: Right after I turned into a vampire, I killed someone. A stranger. I just… killed him. And what’s worse is I liked it. I have blood on my hands too, I mean we all do. Alaric: Yeah, but the blood on my hands is your father’s. Caroline: Yeah, it is. And maybe the guy I killed was someone’s father too. Look, all I know is, I’m no better than you. So, I’m going to take a page from the Elena Gilbert handbook and choose to believe that you can be saved. Okay? Alaric: Okay. So, it shows us that VAMPIRE DOES LIKE TO KILL. It's their nature now. They need to feed human blood to survive. No matter how they hate that feeling, the feeling of like to kill is there, coz now that instinct is needed to survive. I'll give you another from 1x20:DAMON: What are you doing? Who is that? STEFAN: I brought her for you. She's a gift. Have a seat, please. DAMON: What have you done, Stefan? STEFAN: Damon, I've been to see father. He came at me. I didn't know my own strength. There was blood everywhere. He was dying, and the blood was too strong. I needed it. I had to have it.DAMON: You fed. STEFAN: Yes. And it's incredible. My body is exploding with power, Damon. DAMON: No. STEFAN: I can hear things from far away. I can see through the darkness. I can move, like it's magic. And the guilt, the pain...Damon, I can turn it off. Like a switch. Katherine was right. It's a whole another world out there, Damon. DAMON: Katherine is dead, Stefan. There's no world without her. STEFAN: No. You can turn that off, too. You don't have to feel that pain anymore. DAMON: I don't want it. STEFAN: You're weak. You'll be dead soon. You need this. DAMON: No. STEFAN: You'll die. DAMON: No. I can't. STEFAN: Please. I won't let you die. DAMON: No. I can't. STEFAN: Don't fight it. We can do this... together. (Damon drinks blood of the girl) You see, vampire need blood. And in 18 century there's no such thing as blood bag. So yeah, eating directly from human vein is the only option. Stefan felt the guilt but he turn off his emotion to survive and he suggested Damon to do the same. Stefan keep doing that untill Damon couldn't take it no more and left him with Lexi and asked Lexi to help him control himself. The problem with Stefan is, he doesn't want to deal with the grief he felt. So his choice is trying to fight his nature and try to abandoned his nature. Does he trying hard? Yes he does. Does he succeed? No he doesn't. He can fight for sometime, but then he keep falling off the wagon. And when he fell, he killed alot I mean really a lot of ppl that he can ever imagine. We cannot fight who we truly are by pretending to be who we are not. Accepting his vampirism and controlling his guilt is the key to quit being a ripper and being "normal". The thing is, Stefan keep thinking that "normal" is human while he's not. So he really need to get rid of that "normal idea from human perspective" to "normal according to a vampire" Like I said, about friends, about people who means a lot to someone, doesn't mean that it means the same for other one. Yes Elena got hurt coz Damon doesn't consider her important ppl as she does. But the question is, do other people care about what's important to Damon's, to Bonnie's, to Jeremy's, to Matt's, to those deputies or stranger's families? Everybody in this show has their own priority of important people. What's funny is, the show shows us that only few characters of the show aware about it. Elena is the first one who realize this. her conversations with Rebecca and Damon make her realize that everybody has important persons in their lives and they will do whatever it takes to defend that person. While other persons judging them as bad, she finally doesn't, coz she realize she does what those "bad" people do, defending their loved ones, their family and their friends, their survivals, and if killing is necessary she would do it. The thing is, as human you can feel genuinely sorry for killing people, but as a vampire you can't feel sorry for killing them coz you naturally you like it. So the guilty feeling when vampire kill people is not the guilt of killing, but the guilt of liking it. Can you see it?
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Post by justgetused2it on Feb 17, 2014 0:36:47 GMT -5
justgetused2it, Here are a few examples why I say this: - When Caroline turned, Damon wanted to kill her and Stefan made her the great vampire she is today; - When Elena rejected Damon, he killed Jeremy. When she rejected Stefan, he just walked away and tried to move on. - When SE were together, Damon never respected his brother, he tried to kiss Elena many times and he convinced her to drink from him. Stefan always respected DE. - When SE broke up, Damon could say that he was sorry but he was not. When DE got together, Stefan was happy for him and now he wants Elena not to give up on him. - When Katherine was in her death bed, Damon wanted her to die with the guilt of killing her entire family and Stefan made her believe that it wasn't her fault. - Stefan never tried to kill Caroline. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Bonnie. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Jeremy. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Tyler. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Matt. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Alaric. Damon did. This isn't a Damon hate post, I'm just trying to explain why Stefan fans think that Stefan is the good brother and Damon is the bad one. - When Caroline turned, Damon wanted to kill her and Stefan made her the great vampire she is today; Yes, it's true, but there's another fact, he failed with vicky and he killed her. If he really care about people genuinely he would've just hold vicky or snapped her neck to save Elena and Vicky as well then keep teaching Vicky how to become a better vampire. But like I said it just showed that he prioritized what's important to Elena, when Elena is out of the picture, kill is allowed. while Caroline is Elena's best friend, Vicky's not, tho Vicky was someone Jeremy loved and Matt's sister. - When Elena rejected Damon, he killed Jeremy. When she rejected Stefan, he just walked away and tried to move on. Yep, at season 4, when he still kept his hope. In season 5 he acted differently. It's a good thing that Caroline could stop him with physical effort, and too bad for Damon there's no one there to stop him. - When SE were together, Damon never respected his brother, he tried to kiss Elena many times and he convinced her to drink from him. Stefan always respected DE. Yes, at season 1 and 2 Damon was an ass, and he felt sorry for it when he's dying. Damon thought winning a women heart as competition, like woman heart is a trophy to win. But after season 2, he changed, he loves her of course, you can't help who you love. One thing about Damon, being real and truthful to your heart is important, so he was hoping that Elena's heart would change and really fall for him. and how he measure it is by using the necklace Stefan gave to Elena. And I think no one can prevent someone to feel something for someone, just like no one can help Elena for falling in love with vampire, which of course in human POV is totally wrong. - When SE broke up, Damon could say that he was sorry but he was not. When DE got together, Stefan was happy for him and now he wants Elena not to give up on him. If we remember the scene, Damon clearly felt sorry for Stefan but Stefan said something that hurt his feelings. Stefan doubted Damon sincerity. In 5x13 he basically admitted that actually he hoped for his brother failure and Elena left him. so i can't say that he was really supporting Damon and Elena relationship at first. But yes as the time goes, he finally realize something about his brother so he starts to support, but I think still with half heart. Who can blame him, he still loves and wants Elena. So basically both brother have the same issues of letting go the person they love. They can't and never be 100% support each other untill they really moved on. When we analyze something, we should see both words and actions. when actions different from the words they said then we know what actually goin on in their heart. - When Katherine was in her death bed, Damon wanted her to die with the guilt of killing her entire family and Stefan made her believe that it wasn't her fault. Damon did this to Katherine, Damon blame Katherine as the cause of his suffering, he wants revenge. Stefan didn't do it to Katherine, coz he didn't feel that way about her, but Stefan did blame some people in his life as the cause of his suffering, revenge to Klaus in season 3 and killing Silas are examples. They both have hatred towards some people, want revenge and kill them, so no, Katherine case doesn't show that one brother is better than the other. - Stefan never tried to kill Caroline. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Bonnie. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Jeremy. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Tyler. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Matt. Damon did. - Stefan never tried to kill Alaric. Damon did. Like I said, it's about who's important and who's not important in their live at that time. Doesn't make one brother better than the other. But Yes, it makes Stefan one of their pact and Damon isn't included as their pact. So yes, in that pact's POV Damon is the bad guy.
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Post by teppy1 on Feb 17, 2014 10:43:53 GMT -5
justgetused2it tbh I think that they are trying to make it clear to the viewer which brothers intentions are good and which brothers intentions are bad. I don't get why Damon fans don't like that Damon is the bad brother. Season 1, the season most fell for his character, that is exactly how he was painted. Yes, he made steps to try to improve but at his core he is what he always claims to be, selfish. That is his character. It has been proven time and time again. Doesn't mean you can't like him or that he is not a fun character watch (not for me but I get why some like him) I even get why people root for him to change. He hasn't!!! which has been proven by so many parallels. The fact that he went after Jeremy AGAIN after he was hurt by Elena just shows he is the same selfish person he was when Elena said it will always be Stefan. Great you like Damon, than like what he is. Stop trying to make him into something he is not. The writers have made his intentions and his character clear. Same with Stefan. Don't fault Stefan for being what Damon is not. I get it they throw it in your face a lot... not to prove it wrong but to show the difference between the brothers. If you want Damon to prove to be like what Stefan is why don't Damon fans just like Stefan? Why do they have create false intentions up and make Stefan out to be something he is not to make Damon look better. It is beyond frustrating. In season one Stefan killing Vicky now seems out of character to be honest, but if anyone should be blamed for her death why is Damon not brought up? As far as Vicky's demise and torture I believe Damon would have been responsible for that. He killed her and made her a vampire with no intentions on helping her. He wanted the result he got. It was icing on the cake that it was Stefan that killed her. As for Katherine- Damon loved Katherine as much as he loves Elena and for much longer. Then he fed her to Silas when she was weak and begging for her life. Then this act ultimately put her on her death bed and does Katherine once blame him? Seek revenge? No, but Damon continues to torture her. It is selfish. Yes Stefan has seeked revenge, but the circumstances are not comparable. I am sorry I don't pretend to like Damon. I used to, but honestly fans making him out to be something he is not has made my dislike for him worse.
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Post by justgetused2it on Feb 17, 2014 14:57:41 GMT -5
tbh I think that they are trying to make it clear to the viewer which brothers intentions are good and which brothers intentions are bad. I don't get why Damon fans don't like that Damon is the bad brother. Season 1, the season most fell for his character, that is exactly how he was painted. Yes, he made steps to try to improve but at his core he is what he always claims to be, selfish. That is his character. It has been proven time and time again. Doesn't mean you can't like him or that he is not a fun character watch (not for me but I get why some like him) I even get why people root for him to change. He hasn't!!! which has been proven by so many parallels. The fact that he went after Jeremy AGAIN after he was hurt by Elena just shows he is the same selfish person he was when Elena said it will always be Stefan. Great you like Damon, than like what he is. Stop trying to make him into something he is not. The writers have made his intentions and his character clear. Same with Stefan. Don't fault Stefan for being what Damon is not. I get it they throw it in your face a lot... not to prove it wrong but to show the difference between the brothers. If you want Damon to prove to be like what Stefan is why don't Damon fans just like Stefan? Why do they have create false intentions up and make Stefan out to be something he is not to make Damon look better. It is beyond frustrating. In season one Stefan killing Vicky now seems out of character to be honest, but if anyone should be blamed for her death why is Damon not brought up? As far as Vicky's demise and torture I believe Damon would have been responsible for that. He killed her and made her a vampire with no intentions on helping her. He wanted the result he got. It was icing on the cake that it was Stefan that killed her. As for Katherine- Damon loved Katherine as much as he loves Elena and for much longer. Then he fed her to Silas when she was weak and begging for her life. Then this act ultimately put her on her death bed and does Katherine once blame him? Seek revenge? No, but Damon continues to torture her. It is selfish. Yes Stefan has seeked revenge, but the circumstances are not comparable. I am sorry I don't pretend to like Damon. I used to, but honestly fans making him out to be something he is not has made my dislike for him worse. TBH I'm not a fan of any characters, I'm a fan of the show. And actually I got surprise to see how ppl can be rooting for some characters with a plain reason of "this one is better than the other", coz the show clearly do not show that. The show keep telling us that everyone is not like they claim themselves to be thru dialogue and the acts. I join this discussion becoz I like to discuss thing, it's one of my hobby . And to discuss we need to have argument, not preference, coz if we talk about preference then there won't be discussions, right? You like blue and I like red, there would be no discussion. Yes, the show told us through a self-proclaimed of "good brother" and "bad brother", "selfless brother" and selfish brother" we hear that words coming out from their own mouth many times. But yet, their actions give me different impressions. Do you understand what I mean? If I mentioned Damon selfless acts, it's becoz I want to show you that he's not as selfish/bad as he claimed to be, meaning his self-proclaimed label is not 100% true, not becoz I'm rooting for Damon. Same thing with Stefan, if I mention his bad/selfish act, it's just to show you his self-proclaimed label of good brother/selfless brother is not 100% true, not becoz I hate the character. Keep that in mind, ok? - As Damon revenge to Katherine and the Augustine/Whitmore, how can't it be comparable to Stefan revenge to Silas and Klaus? They both have the same motives, which is revenge. both Katherine and Silas actually going to die, Silas wanted to kill himself and Katherine actually dying and would die eventually. So why these two brother feel the need to end Silas/Katherine lives with their own hands? The answer is to fulfill and satisfy their own selves, means selfish. Silas tortured Stefan by drowning him for 3 months, Whitmore's Augustine project torture Damon for 5 years. These traumatic events of PHYSICAL torturing make both brother want to take revenges. Stefan blame Klaus for making him back to his ripper self, hurting Elena. In his revenge acts Stefan didn't want to care about Jeremy's live even if it's in danger, threaten Klaus by telling him he would turn Elena to a vampire if Klaus didn't want to do what he said. Damon in his revenge plan to eliminate anything about Augustine project kill Aaron in the process and put Jeremy's live in danger by letting Jeremy in Enzo's hand. So you see...Stefan was acting crazy and Damon too. So these revenge motives comparison show that both brother are capable of doing bad things and potentially hurting ppl that they love (Elena). These cases shows us that both brother act on selfishness. Can you explain why you think Stefan's and Damon's case of revenge are not comparable? Put in mind, I'm not trying to describe a character as someone he's not, I'm just describing all aspects of the two brother in order to make you see who their characters really are. In order to do so, I have to bring out the different side of each brother other than their label, to make you question their labels.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 15:25:22 GMT -5
tbh I think that they are trying to make it clear to the viewer which brothers intentions are good and which brothers intentions are bad. I don't get why Damon fans don't like that Damon is the bad brother. Season 1, the season most fell for his character, that is exactly how he was painted. Yes, he made steps to try to improve but at his core he is what he always claims to be, selfish. That is his character. It has been proven time and time again. Doesn't mean you can't like him or that he is not a fun character watch (not for me but I get why some like him) I even get why people root for him to change. He hasn't!!! which has been proven by so many parallels. The fact that he went after Jeremy AGAIN after he was hurt by Elena just shows he is the same selfish person he was when Elena said it will always be Stefan. Great you like Damon, than like what he is. Stop trying to make him into something he is not. The writers have made his intentions and his character clear. Same with Stefan. Don't fault Stefan for being what Damon is not. I get it they throw it in your face a lot... not to prove it wrong but to show the difference between the brothers. If you want Damon to prove to be like what Stefan is why don't Damon fans just like Stefan? Why do they have create false intentions up and make Stefan out to be something he is not to make Damon look better. It is beyond frustrating. In season one Stefan killing Vicky now seems out of character to be honest, but if anyone should be blamed for her death why is Damon not brought up? As far as Vicky's demise and torture I believe Damon would have been responsible for that. He killed her and made her a vampire with no intentions on helping her. He wanted the result he got. It was icing on the cake that it was Stefan that killed her. As for Katherine- Damon loved Katherine as much as he loves Elena and for much longer. Then he fed her to Silas when she was weak and begging for her life. Then this act ultimately put her on her death bed and does Katherine once blame him? Seek revenge? No, but Damon continues to torture her. It is selfish. Yes Stefan has seeked revenge, but the circumstances are not comparable. I am sorry I don't pretend to like Damon. I used to, but honestly fans making him out to be something he is not has made my dislike for him worse. TBH I'm not a fan of any characters, I'm a fan of the show. And actually I got surprise to see how ppl can be rooting for some characters with a plain reason of "this one is better than the other", coz the show clearly do not show that. The show keep telling us that everyone is not like they claim themselves to be thru dialogue and the acts. I join this discussion becoz I like to discuss thing, it's one of my hobby . And to discuss we need to have argument, not preference, coz if we talk about preference then there won't be discussions, right? You like blue and I like red, there would be no discussion. Yes, the show told us through a self-proclaimed of "good brother" and "bad brother", "selfless brother" and selfish brother" we hear that words coming out from their own mouth many times. But yet, their actions give me different impressions. Do you understand what I mean? If I mentioned Damon selfless acts, it's becoz I want to show you that he's not as selfish/bad as he claimed to be, meaning his self-proclaimed label is not 100% true, not becoz I'm rooting for Damon. Same thing with Stefan, if I mention his bad/selfish act, it's just to show you his self-proclaimed label of good brother/selfless brother is not 100% true, not becoz I hate the character. Keep that in mind, ok? - As Damon revenge to Katherine and the Augustine/Whitmore, how can't it be comparable to Stefan revenge to Silas and Klaus? They both have the same motives, which is revenge. both Katherine and Silas actually going to die, Silas wanted to kill himself and Katherine actually dying and would die eventually. So why these two brother feel the need to end Silas/Katherine lives with their own hands? The answer is to fulfill and satisfy their own selves, means selfish. Silas tortured Stefan by drowning him for 3 months, Whitmore's Augustine project torture Damon for 5 years. These traumatic events of PHYSICAL torturing make both brother want to take revenges. Stefan blame Klaus for making him back to his ripper self, hurting Elena. In his revenge acts Stefan didn't want to care about Jeremy's live in danger, threaten Klaus by telling him he would turn Elena to a vampire if Klaus didn't want to do what he said. Damon in his revenge plan to eliminate anything about Augustine project kill Aaron in the process and put Jeremy's live in danger by letting Jeremy in Enzo's hand. So you see...Stefan was acting crazy and Damon too. So these revenge motives comparison show that both brother are capable of doing bad things and potentially hurting ppl that they love (Elena). These cases shows us that both brother act on selfishness. Can you explain why you think Stefan's and Damon's case of revenge are not comparable? Put in mind, I'm not trying to describe a character as someone he's not, I'm just describing all aspects of the two brother in order to make you see who their characters really are. In order to do so, I have to bring out the different side of each brother other than their label. "And to discuss we need to have argument, not preference, coz if we talk about preference then there won't be discussions, right?" Preference is precisely why we have arguments and discussions (these two words are interchangeable, so I don't know why you separated them; they're essentially the same thing). Cause if someone has a preference, they'll try to persuade others to that preference, and that person that they'll try to persuade will resist, or convince them of their preference, which essentially, and eventually results in discussions and/or arguments--according to the intensity of the conversation. So in reality you need preference, otherwise they'll be no arguments or oppositions. But that'll always be the case because we humans have freedom of will, and choice, with unique personalities and perspectives, so we'll disagree on things (or preferences), which will always result in discussions and arguments. Read more: tvdshow.proboards.com/thread/154/official-debating-thread?page=4&scrollTo=13164#ixzz2tc0M8aJY
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Post by teppy1 on Feb 17, 2014 15:29:08 GMT -5
tbh I think that they are trying to make it clear to the viewer which brothers intentions are good and which brothers intentions are bad. I don't get why Damon fans don't like that Damon is the bad brother. Season 1, the season most fell for his character, that is exactly how he was painted. Yes, he made steps to try to improve but at his core he is what he always claims to be, selfish. That is his character. It has been proven time and time again. Doesn't mean you can't like him or that he is not a fun character watch (not for me but I get why some like him) I even get why people root for him to change. He hasn't!!! which has been proven by so many parallels. The fact that he went after Jeremy AGAIN after he was hurt by Elena just shows he is the same selfish person he was when Elena said it will always be Stefan. Great you like Damon, than like what he is. Stop trying to make him into something he is not. The writers have made his intentions and his character clear. Same with Stefan. Don't fault Stefan for being what Damon is not. I get it they throw it in your face a lot... not to prove it wrong but to show the difference between the brothers. If you want Damon to prove to be like what Stefan is why don't Damon fans just like Stefan? Why do they have create false intentions up and make Stefan out to be something he is not to make Damon look better. It is beyond frustrating. In season one Stefan killing Vicky now seems out of character to be honest, but if anyone should be blamed for her death why is Damon not brought up? As far as Vicky's demise and torture I believe Damon would have been responsible for that. He killed her and made her a vampire with no intentions on helping her. He wanted the result he got. It was icing on the cake that it was Stefan that killed her. As for Katherine- Damon loved Katherine as much as he loves Elena and for much longer. Then he fed her to Silas when she was weak and begging for her life. Then this act ultimately put her on her death bed and does Katherine once blame him? Seek revenge? No, but Damon continues to torture her. It is selfish. Yes Stefan has seeked revenge, but the circumstances are not comparable. I am sorry I don't pretend to like Damon. I used to, but honestly fans making him out to be something he is not has made my dislike for him worse. TBH I'm not a fan of any characters, I'm a fan of the show. And actually I got surprise to see how ppl can be rooting for some characters with a plain reason of "this one is better than the other", coz the show clearly do not show that. The show keep telling us that everyone is not like they claim themselves to be thru dialogue and the acts. I join this discussion becoz I like to discuss thing, it's one of my hobby . And to discuss we need to have argument, not preference, coz if we talk about preference then there won't be discussions, right? You like blue and I like red, there would be no discussion. Yes, the show told us through a self-proclaimed of "good brother" and "bad brother", "selfless brother" and selfish brother" we hear that words coming out from their own mouth many times. But yet, their actions give me different impressions. Do you understand what I mean? If I mentioned Damon selfless acts, it's becoz I want to show you that he's not as selfish/bad as he claimed to be, meaning his self-proclaimed label is not 100% true, not becoz I'm rooting for Damon. Same thing with Stefan, if I mention his bad/selfish act, it's just to show you his self-proclaimed label of good brother/selfless brother is not 100% true, not becoz I hate the character. Keep that in mind, ok? - As Damon revenge to Katherine and the Augustine/Whitmore, how can't it be comparable to Stefan revenge to Silas and Klaus? They both have the same motives, which is revenge. both Katherine and Silas actually going to die, Silas wanted to kill himself and Katherine actually dying and would die eventually. So why these two brother feel the need to end Silas/Katherine lives with their own hands? The answer is to fulfill and satisfy their own selves, means selfish. Silas tortured Stefan by drowning him for 3 months, Whitmore's Augustine project torture Damon for 5 years. These traumatic events of PHYSICAL torturing make both brother want to take revenges. Stefan blame Klaus for making him back to his ripper self, hurting Elena. In his revenge acts Stefan didn't want to care about Jeremy's live in danger, threaten Klaus by telling him he would turn Elena to a vampire if Klaus didn't want to do what he said. Damon in his revenge plan to eliminate anything about Augustine project kill Aaron in the process and put Jeremy's live in danger by letting Jeremy in Enzo's hand. So you see...Stefan was acting crazy and Damon too. So these revenge motives comparison show that both brother are capable of doing bad things and potentially hurting ppl that they love (Elena). These cases shows us that both brother act on selfishness. Can you explain why you think Stefan's and Damon's case of revenge are not comparable? Put in mind, I'm not trying to describe a character as someone he's not, I'm just describing all aspects of the two brother in order to make you see who their characters really are. In order to do so, I have to bring out the different side of each brother other than their label. well you can't be a fan of the show and not be a fan of the characters. It is only natural to like some more than others. I guess I do not see how they are showing characters being anything other than what they claim to be. I see that some actions don't always match up to who they claim to be or who the show claims them to be, but for the most part the truth about their character always comes out. Yes, Stefan has been selfish before, but the root of character is not. Yes, Damon has been selfless before, but the root of his character is not. I get that you and others do not see that way, but in my head it is not even debatable and I don't see that way because of my dislike for Damon or my need for Stefan to "be the good brother" I am just drawn to Stefan's character more than Damon's character. If I liked Damon more I still think I would see it the same way because I would like Damon for what the show portrays him as. Yes, these characters have dimension to them so they are not always "good" or "bad" but I still think that the core of their character remains consistent through the series (even though Julie sometimes confuses me) I do not think Silas and Katherine are comparable for many reasons. 1. The relationships are different Silas & Stefan do not know each other and have never known each other. Damon & katherine Damon loved Katherine and was in a relationship with her. He looked for her for 100+ years Type of Torture 1. Silas & Stefan Stefan died countless times which was not only painful physically, but emotionally 2. Katherine and Damon Damon was hurt emotionally. He thought Katherine loved him and she didn't. She didn't intend for him to look for her for as long as he did. She did not hurt him physically at all and there were times after the fact that she actually helped him. Timing Stefan and Silas- It was an open wound with Silas like it would have been if they killed Katherine right away. Damon and Katherine it had been a long time since Katherine hurt Damon and you could say hurting Elena was hurting him, but not really when he had done the same things. In the end they both wanted revenge and they were both selfish, but the above difference in the relationship, what was done, and timing of the revenge makes them, to me, not comparable.
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Post by tara on Feb 17, 2014 15:42:21 GMT -5
Put in mind, I'm not trying to describe a character as someone he's not, I'm just describing all aspects of the two brother in order to make you see who their characters really are. In order to do so, I have to bring out the different side of each brother other than their label, to make you question their labels. Try to keep in mind your views of the show and characters may not be the same as others. Just because you see it as one way, doesn't mean others views are wrong.
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Post by deb on Feb 17, 2014 16:14:20 GMT -5
TBH I'm not a fan of any characters, I'm a fan of the show. And actually I got surprise to see how ppl can be rooting for some characters with a plain reason of "this one is better than the other", coz the show clearly do not show that. The show keep telling us that everyone is not like they claim themselves to be thru dialogue and the acts. I join this discussion becoz I like to discuss thing, it's one of my hobby . And to discuss we need to have argument, not preference, coz if we talk about preference then there won't be discussions, right? You like blue and I like red, there would be no discussion. Yes, the show told us through a self-proclaimed of "good brother" and "bad brother", "selfless brother" and selfish brother" we hear that words coming out from their own mouth many times. But yet, their actions give me different impressions. Do you understand what I mean? If I mentioned Damon selfless acts, it's becoz I want to show you that he's not as selfish/bad as he claimed to be, meaning his self-proclaimed label is not 100% true, not becoz I'm rooting for Damon. Same thing with Stefan, if I mention his bad/selfish act, it's just to show you his self-proclaimed label of good brother/selfless brother is not 100% true, not becoz I hate the character. Keep that in mind, ok? - As Damon revenge to Katherine and the Augustine/Whitmore, how can't it be comparable to Stefan revenge to Silas and Klaus? They both have the same motives, which is revenge. both Katherine and Silas actually going to die, Silas wanted to kill himself and Katherine actually dying and would die eventually. So why these two brother feel the need to end Silas/Katherine lives with their own hands? The answer is to fulfill and satisfy their own selves, means selfish. Silas tortured Stefan by drowning him for 3 months, Whitmore's Augustine project torture Damon for 5 years. These traumatic events of PHYSICAL torturing make both brother want to take revenges. Stefan blame Klaus for making him back to his ripper self, hurting Elena. In his revenge acts Stefan didn't want to care about Jeremy's live even if it's in danger, threaten Klaus by telling him he would turn Elena to a vampire if Klaus didn't want to do what he said. Damon in his revenge plan to eliminate anything about Augustine project kill Aaron in the process and put Jeremy's live in danger by letting Jeremy in Enzo's hand. So you see...Stefan was acting crazy and Damon too. So these revenge motives comparison show that both brother are capable of doing bad things and potentially hurting ppl that they love (Elena). These cases shows us that both brother act on selfishness. Can you explain why you think Stefan's and Damon's case of revenge are not comparable? Put in mind, I'm not trying to describe a character as someone he's not, I'm just describing all aspects of the two brother in order to make you see who their characters really are. In order to do so, I have to bring out the different side of each brother other than their label. justgetused2it, we don't know what Stefan was going to do with Jesse (he had no memories in that scene, btw). Stefan once said to Elena that he was a ripper and a ripper doesn't stop. He once said he used to black out in his ripper days. That makes me think that he can't control it. All vampires love to kill but the ones that fight not to do it, have my respect and make me thing they are better than the ones that don't fight it. It's not a question of labbels or trying to show they are good or bad, it's a question of trying fight the vampire nature. Stefan was compelled to drink Katherine's blood, he didn't want to be a vampire, he hates what he is and that's why he tries to fight it. It's not just about proving Elena that he's good and pretending that his human. He didn't know Elena and he tried to save a family that drove off from a bridge. He didn't know Elena and he tried the animals diet because he knew that he had to fight the blood lust and being a ripper, because it wasn't right. Yes, Damon became better (did he?) for Elena. Stefan tried to be better before Elena. It's not just a matter of hurting friends or not friends, it's a matter of not hurting humans in general. I don't think Stefan considered Liz or Carol or even Alaric (in the beggining) as friends but truth is, he never tried to kill them or treat them horrible anyway. Yes, Chris was a bed move and I hated that Stefan took a part of it (like Damon did too) but, unfortunatly, in this show, it's always everything for Elena, they all have to die to protect Elena. Stefan and Damon have said that they would give their lifes for Elena so, I understand that they did it. I didn't like it but of course they would do it. Yes, Stefan threatened John to leave town, he didn't kill him. Again, he did it to protect Elena, she wanted him gone, and he told Elena imediately what he did. It's not like he lied to her about it. About Caroline turning, and Katherine death bed (and many many other times, because the writers love to show us what both brothers do in the exact same situation), are the perfect examples to compare both brothers so there's no point in bringing vicky or Klaus to compare it, specialy when you don't know what Damon would have done with Vicky or Klaus if he were in Stefan's shoes. Besides, don't forget that the whole revenge Klaus thing was only because he had to save Damon so, don't tell me that Stefan wasn't selfless. No, Damon wasn't an ass just in season 1 and 2 and he didn't change in s02. Did you watch season 3, when he found out that Stefan was out there, saving his life, and he tried to kiss Elena all the time and make her feel things for him that she would remember when Stefan got back? Did you watch season 4, when he made Elena drink from him and he knew that it was a very personal and intimate act for vampires or when he slept with Elena the day after she and Stefan broke up? Sometimes I wish Stefan would try to kiss Elena and touch her and make her drink his blood, while DE were together so that Damon's fans would understand what Stefan felt! So, I guess that, except for Elena, no one else is important for Damon and since they aren't important, why shouldn't he just kill them!?!? Tyler, Caroline, Matt, Alaric, Jeremy, everyone! You say that when we analyze something, we should see both words and actions. Yes, I see Stefan not trying to get Elena back and telling her to fight for Damon. Did you see Damon doing it after SE broke up? Oh, of course, he was to busy sleeping with Elena the following day. The show doesn't tell us that everyone is not like they claim themselves to be thru dialogue and the acts, that's what you believe because it's the only way you can make Stefan and Damon look the same when they aren't... If that was really the writers intentions, why would they say over and over again that Stefan is the good brother and Damon is the bad? Why would they make Damon say that he's selfish? Why would they make Elena say that Stefan is her best choice, the perfect boyfriend, and Damon is her worse? It's not just Stefan saying that he's good, and pretending to be good, he TRIES to be good, you're the one who's assuming he's bad and just pretending to be good to impress Elena, but that's not the story the writers are telling. I can't even understand why Damon's fans make these assumptions. If the writers wanted to tell THAT story, they would, they didn't have to show us Stefan being selfless many times, and really caring and protecting Bonnie, Caroline, Jeremy, Damon, Katherine, everyone. Answering your question, I would prefer to hang out with the guy that is dangerous (because it's in his nature) but tries to fight it and be good, than the guy who is dangerous and likes it and wants to be even more dangerous and selfish.
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Post by justgetused2it on Feb 18, 2014 11:26:25 GMT -5
justgetused2it, we don't know what Stefan was going to do with Jesse (he had no memories in that scene, btw). Stefan once said to Elena that he was a ripper and a ripper doesn't stop. He once said he used to black out in his ripper days. That makes me think that he can't control it.
It's called a ripper because a ripper doesn't stop, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't. With memory or no memory won't effect someone true personality right? Jesse case showed that when he upset (becoz Elena told him she's with Damon) he became murderous. Yes I cannot prove it because Jesse alive at the end, but from the scene we could see that Stefan was going to keep feeding. Compare this to when he first came to bar at 5x3, he fed a little then stopped and ask the bartender to run. So clearly he has control on blood lust. Why can he hardly control when his memory back? Clearly the ripper state is not an effect of feeding human blood but rather psychological. All vampires love to kill but the ones that fight not to do it, have my respect and make me thing they are better than the ones that don't fight it. It's not a question of labbels or trying to show they are good or bad, it's a question of trying fight the vampire nature. Stefan was compelled to drink Katherine's blood, he didn't want to be a vampire, he hates what he is and that's why he tries to fight it. It's not just about proving Elena that he's good and pretending that his human. He didn't know Elena and he tried to save a family that drove off from a bridge. He didn't know Elena and he tried the animals diet because he knew that he had to fight the blood lust and being a ripper, because it wasn't right. Yes, Damon became better (did he?) for Elena. Stefan tried to be better before Elena.I got your point, and I agree some of it. You see it in human POV, that a vampire who wants to fight his nature by not killing ppl got our respect. But still, in human POV, don't you think it's really dangerous when vampires do not completely open to us about his urge to kill? Hide the horrible things they capable of and the potential that it could go out of control? Elena wasn't aware of this fact becoz Stefan never told her about it. That's why she fed him her blood when she on a rescue mission with Alaric and Damon and she had no idea how dangerous it could be. And still he didn't tell Elena about in 1x19, Damon told her. So fighting vampire nature is good, but being honest about their nature is needed too, specially when it could put human in danger. this why I said I respect something from each brother and also disrespecting something from them. Oh one more, Damon not become better for Elena, but he become better becoz of Elena, becoz she could see the good in him, becoz when among all of people who judge him have no redeeming quality Elena still consider him as worthy. Finally someone think that he's worth saving. It's not just a matter of hurting friends or not friends, it's a matter of not hurting humans in general. I don't think Stefan considered Liz or Carol or even Alaric (in the beggining) as friends but truth is, he never tried to kill them or treat them horrible anyway. Yes, Chris was a bed move and I hated that Stefan took a part of it (like Damon did too) but, unfortunatly, in this show, it's always everything for Elena, they all have to die to protect Elena. Stefan and Damon have said that they would give their lifes for Elena so, I understand that they did it. I didn't like it but of course they would do it.So that is why I said both brother failed to show it. Coz they ended up "hurting" human by whatever reason. No one better than another. Yes, Stefan threatened John to leave town, he didn't kill him. Again, he did it to protect Elena, she wanted him gone, and he told Elena imediately what he did. It's not like he lied to her about it.
Yeah, Stefan said he asked john to leave town when Elena asked what he's doing with John. It's Elena who said that he threaten John and then he admit. I don't know, but I got an impression that Stefan only would tell the truth when he got caught. He has tendency to keep his past a secret. There are several occasions supporting this. Maybe becoz he just want to forget his bad past and start fresh and new. Besides, don't forget that the whole revenge Klaus thing was only because he had to save Damon so, don't tell me that Stefan wasn't selfless.I don't agree with this. Stefan betrayed Damon from killing Klaus coz Kat said the hybrid will kill Damon if Klaus dead. The plan execution failed, so Damon saved. There's no point for revenge. It changed nothing. So yes, Stefan screwed their plan to save Damon. But the revenge plan has nothing to do with Damon. So it's not a selfless act, it's a selfish act coz the revenge plan put others in danger. No, Damon wasn't an ass just in season 1 and 2 and he didn't change in s02. Did you watch season 3, when he found out that Stefan was out there, saving his life, and he tried to kiss Elena all the time and make her feel things for him that she would remember when Stefan got back? Did you watch season 4, when he made Elena drink from him and he knew that it was a very personal and intimate act for vampires or when he slept with Elena the day after she and Stefan broke up? Sometimes I wish Stefan would try to kiss Elena and touch her and make her drink his blood, while DE were together so that Damon's fans would understand what Stefan felt!Well then we have to disagree on this. I said someone is an ass when he force others to do what they don't want to do. Damon forced Elena several time in season 1 and 2, tried to kiss her twice and force her drink her blood as an attempt to save her from dead dead. In season 3 things just different. it's mutual, they both wanted it. the kiss in 3x10 and 3x19. Did Damon do something to help Elena back to Stefan? Yes he did. He offered him self as replacement to accompany Klaus, but Klaus almost killed him instead (thanks to the witch), he did this to buy sometime for Elena and Stefan. He know the risk of getting killed but he do it anyway. Don't you realize that it took 9 episodes for Damon and Elena tried to get Stefan back? And in those episodes not once Damon did inappropriate things to her. He reminds Elena of her bond with Stefan by keep turning her necklace back, till she didn't want it anymore. But still Damon tried to keep Stefan good image by turning abby to vampire when actually it's Stefan who should do it. (Damon actually capable of doin selfless act, doesn't he?). In season 4, in six episode we see that Damon barely go near her. And if he did, he did it becoz Elena asked for it. Blood sharing, what do you expect him to do? He told Elena it's personal, so don't tell Stefan, he didnt hide the fact that it's personal. Elena could've refused just like she refuse to eat from human and asked for other option. Why he suggest blood sharing? Coz Elena couldn't keep the animal blood down, she refused to eat from human, she's starving, she tried to tell Stefan about it but he just didn't listen. So actually Stefan should blame himself for not listening to Elena. She slept with Damon 4x7 becoz she wanted to, it just happened. They can't help it. No one faults. He has tried his best pushing Elena to Stefan until Elena didn't want to be with Stefan anymore. If we compare it to 5x11, it's clear at that time Elena and Damon still want each other back, that is why Stefan told both of them not to give up. But after 5x12, when Stefan overheard Elena said "it's over" he doesn't asked Elena not to give up on her relationship with Damon again in 5x13, he let Elena flirt with him, and I believe if in that time if Elena initiate sex he would do it. Becoz it's over. The truth is love works both ways. if two of them still want it then not to give up is the best advice, but if one walks away..then it's over, no point of keep fighting. Love hurts LOL. So, I guess that, except for Elena, no one else is important for Damon and since they aren't important, why shouldn't he just kill them!?!? Tyler, Caroline, Matt, Alaric, Jeremy, everyone! Damon kill for purpose, not for nothing. He care about Liz, Alaric, Caroline, Matt and Jeremy. Elena is his top priority. What funny is even Caroline not in his top priority, he's willing to throw himself to a werewolf (when Tyler turned) so Caroline wouldn't get attacked by it (2x20). But if he has to choose between her and other ppl's lives or his own live, he will always choose her. You say that when we analyze something, we should see both words and actions. Yes, I see Stefan not trying to get Elena back and telling her to fight for Damon. Did you see Damon doing it after SE broke up? Oh, of course, he was to busy sleeping with Elena the following day. The show doesn't tell us that everyone is not like they claim themselves to be thru dialogue and the acts, that's what you believe because it's the only way you can make Stefan and Damon look the same when they aren't... I agree, they're not the same, they have different characters. but they both do the same things good or bad things, they both selfless and selfish at the same time. They have difference preference in determining when they should act selfish/selfless and on how to do things. They have different opinion in what is right or wrong. Sometime Stefan way is proven right and sometimes Damon way is. About slept together after breakup I have explained about it. If that was really the writers intentions, why would they say over and over again that Stefan is the good brother and Damon is the bad? Why would they make Damon say that he's selfish? Why would they make Elena say that Stefan is her best choice, the perfect boyfriend, and Damon is her worse? It's not just Stefan saying that he's good, and pretending to be good, he TRIES to be good, you're the one who's assuming he's bad and just pretending to be good to impress Elena, but that's not the story the writers are telling. I can't even understand why Damon's fans make these assumptions. If the writers wanted to tell THAT story, they would, they didn't have to show us Stefan being selfless many times, and really caring and protecting Bonnie, Caroline, Jeremy, Damon, Katherine, everyone. Becoz it's the TV shows, it's tv series, because the characters needs to develop, because there's things to be revealed to keep the story interesting, because you can see the acts, the expressions, listen to the dialogues and see if the ppl are really like what they say about themselves. That is why I like this show, becoz it's deep. Answering your question, I would prefer to hang out with the guy that is dangerous (because it's in his nature) but tries to fight it and be good, than the guy who is dangerous and likes it and wants to be even more dangerous and selfish.But it's different if the guy that is dangerous (tho he tries to be good at his best) hides the fact that he is dangerous. And for other dangerous guy who claim to be dangerous, if he has no quality that worth my friendship then I will not be his friend. But if he has some quality that worth it then I'll hang out with him. But at least I know what I should do and what I should not do to keep me save.
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Post by Ruby on Feb 18, 2014 18:50:46 GMT -5
Ruby stepping in here...
Although you guys have been doing great with this latest discussion I have noticed its starting to go in circles so this debate will now be closed. We all have our preferences and opinions and although debates are good to open your mind on another perspective, sometimes it is what it is and we need to agree to disagree...
So this current debate is now closed and if you wish to start a new one remember to state what exactly are you looking to debate. thanks! your administrator has spoken message me if anything xoxo
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