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Post by Anna on Oct 14, 2013 8:15:42 GMT -5
I have to agree that Elena brings the best in Damon (he still couldn't be selfless enough with her to let her go when she was sired but, many times, he was able to be good for her) but I can't agree that he brings the best in her... I used to like Elena because she was selfless and compassionate and she was able to put others before herself, she hurt when she hurt others, she was a heroine. After the sire bond mess, I can't like her, she's selfish, she puts herself before everyone else, she stopped caring about her friends, her brother, her ex-boyfriend (she was always so upset and always apologized whenever she hurt Damon but she never cared when she hurt Stefan in 04*23), she was cold enough to sleep Damon the day after Stefan broke up with her and she let Stefan get out of his house to do that... So, I can see THIS Elena characteristics in Damon but I still hope this isn't the real Elena because she's not better than Katherine right now, on the contrary... Is it so bad to be selfish and think about one's self? Look at Bonnie. She's not ready to be dead. She gave up her life. And though she won't say it she probably didn't realize how much her life was worth, how much it meant to her. I think there's selflessness and then there's a point where you have to stop and think about yourself as well. "She puts herself before everyone else" Are you telling me you wouldn't do the same that there has never been a time in your life, where you've gone "I'm sorry I need to do this for me" I'm actually glad that for once Elena is thinking about herself. I'm glad that she has wants and goes for it. Is it so bad to want something in her life. Time passes you by, and sometimes you have to take the oppurtunites life presents you. (Now don't get me wrong I hated that Elena and Damon had sex in 4x07 but I also see why she did. She wasn't going to deny this thing they had anymore. She took a chance. Life is short. Even for a vampire. ) And as for her friends. Caroline wasn't entirely on board with the whole Damon thing and I understand why but yeh that definitely creates tension. Especially when Caroline was such a big supporter of Stelena. If my friends didn't support me on something that made me happy and tried to make me feel guilty about it instead. Why would I put myself through that? And as for the brother thing. No. I don't agree with that. What suggests she doesn't care or treats him like crap? Cause as I see it. She left him with Damon. Someone she trusts. She wanted to drop school to make sure he was okay. And as for the Stefan thing. I think were missing a scene before Elena gives the cure to Stefan. I think they talk. But its not shown there. So its my little headcanon. But as it is. Stefan and Elena mutually broke up in 4x06. So I don't believe she really owes Stefan anything. She still cares for him. But she wants to give him the space. She's definitely had Stefan on her mind during the summer wanting to make sure he was alright. But she was trying to respect him and not hurt him anymore than she has. And so even though she wanted to call him she refrained. Putting Stefan before herself. Sounds like all that selflessness didn't entirely slip away. And yes Elena being selfish is a characteristic that has been brought out by Damon and I think its great for her, like i mentioned above, but I also think that her ability to be comfortable with herself and who she was, was a Damon thing. When everybody was telling her this wasn't who she was, that she couldn't be like this, her own friends, her brother. It was Damon that had reassured her. That told her she wasn't a failure at being a vampire.
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Post by napoli on Oct 14, 2013 8:58:19 GMT -5
Is it so bad to be selfish and think about one's self? Look at Bonnie. She's not ready to be dead. She gave up her life. And though she won't say it she probably didn't realize how much her life was worth, how much it meant to her. I think there's selflessness and then there's a point where you have to stop and think about yourself as well. "She puts herself before everyone else" Are you telling me you wouldn't do the same that there has never been a time in your life, where you've gone "I'm sorry I need to do this for me" I'm actually glad that for once Elena is thinking about herself. I'm glad that she has wants and goes for it. Is it so bad to want something in her life. Time passes you by, and sometimes you have to take the oppurtunites life presents you. (Now don't get me wrong I hated that Elena and Damon had sex in 4x07 but I also see why she did. She wasn't going to deny this thing they had anymore. She took a chance. Life is short. Even for a vampire. ) And as for her friends. Caroline wasn't entirely on board with the whole Damon thing and I understand why but yeh that definitely creates tension. Especially when Caroline was such a big supporter of Stelena. If my friends didn't support me on something that made me happy and tried to make me feel guilty about it instead. Why would I put myself through that? And as for the brother thing. No. I don't agree with that. What suggests she doesn't care or treats him like crap? Cause as I see it. She left him with Damon. Someone she trusts. She wanted to drop school to make sure he was okay. And as for the Stefan thing. I think were missing a scene before Elena gives the cure to Stefan. I think they talk. But its not shown there. So its my little headcanon. But as it is. Stefan and Elena mutually broke up in 4x06. So I don't believe she really owes Stefan anything. She still cares for him. But she wants to give him the space. She's definitely had Stefan on her mind during the summer wanting to make sure he was alright. But she was trying to respect him and not hurt him anymore than she has. And so even though she wanted to call him she refrained. Putting Stefan before herself. Sounds like all that selflessness didn't entirely slip away. And yes Elena being selfish is a characteristic that has been brought out by Damon and I think its great for her, like i mentioned above, but I also think that her ability to be comfortable with herself and who she was, was a Damon thing. When everybody was telling her this wasn't who she was, that she couldn't be like this, her own friends, her brother. It was Damon that had reassured her. That told her she wasn't a failure at being a vampire. The point deb was making is that, that hasn't been Elena from s1-s4X06. Elena wasn't selfish. This is growth in her character development but rather a regression. Elena not only left Jeremy with his murderer, s2 Damon snapped his neck, but then Damon turned around and got Jeremy to protect his other murderer Katherine, s4. Jeremy almost died in 5x01 and you still think it's ok for Elena to trust Damon? Even though Damon didn't cause the car crash, Damon should know that Katherine will do anything to survive so anyone, especially Damon who has known Katherine the longest, should have known that putting Jeremy with Katherine is a stupid, dangerous thing to do. Also, Elena put the blame for the house burning down on Jeremy. This was extremely selfish of her. And it wasn't selfish in a sense of Elena needs to do something good for herself. It was the kind of selfish where Elena just took the easy way out. She made Jeremy take the blame or something horrific that happened. Nice sister. Elena would have never done this before. Elena would have done everything in her power to protect Jeremy so it shows again how she is regressing instead of progressing as a character. Anna there's no such thing as headcanon. You can't just assume a scene is missing just so it makes the character you like seem better.
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Post by deb on Oct 14, 2013 15:15:20 GMT -5
Is it so bad to be selfish and think about one's self? Look at Bonnie. She's not ready to be dead. She gave up her life. And though she won't say it she probably didn't realize how much her life was worth, how much it meant to her. I think there's selflessness and then there's a point where you have to stop and think about yourself as well. "She puts herself before everyone else" Are you telling me you wouldn't do the same that there has never been a time in your life, where you've gone "I'm sorry I need to do this for me" I'm actually glad that for once Elena is thinking about herself. I'm glad that she has wants and goes for it. Is it so bad to want something in her life. Time passes you by, and sometimes you have to take the oppurtunites life presents you. (Now don't get me wrong I hated that Elena and Damon had sex in 4x07 but I also see why she did. She wasn't going to deny this thing they had anymore. She took a chance. Life is short. Even for a vampire. ) And as for her friends. Caroline wasn't entirely on board with the whole Damon thing and I understand why but yeh that definitely creates tension. Especially when Caroline was such a big supporter of Stelena. If my friends didn't support me on something that made me happy and tried to make me feel guilty about it instead. Why would I put myself through that? And as for the brother thing. No. I don't agree with that. What suggests she doesn't care or treats him like crap? Cause as I see it. She left him with Damon. Someone she trusts. She wanted to drop school to make sure he was okay. And as for the Stefan thing. I think were missing a scene before Elena gives the cure to Stefan. I think they talk. But its not shown there. So its my little headcanon. But as it is. Stefan and Elena mutually broke up in 4x06. So I don't believe she really owes Stefan anything. She still cares for him. But she wants to give him the space. She's definitely had Stefan on her mind during the summer wanting to make sure he was alright. But she was trying to respect him and not hurt him anymore than she has. And so even though she wanted to call him she refrained. Putting Stefan before herself. Sounds like all that selflessness didn't entirely slip away. And yes Elena being selfish is a characteristic that has been brought out by Damon and I think its great for her, like i mentioned above, but I also think that her ability to be comfortable with herself and who she was, was a Damon thing. When everybody was telling her this wasn't who she was, that she couldn't be like this, her own friends, her brother. It was Damon that had reassured her. That told her she wasn't a failure at being a vampire. Anna, believe me, I find myself at Stefan and Elena, sometimes because they are too good, too selfless sometimes, and to people that don't deserve it... But, I'm not a hero/heroine in a tv show and I don't want to be one... IMO, the heroine in a tv show has to be good and Elena wasn't good in season 4. And, my problem is that, I can't agree that Elena is thinking about herself, I think she was mainly thinking about Damon, about what he wanted, about what would make him happy... I know you question the sire bond. I don't, I think the writers presented it clearly to us last season and the effects it has in a person (they showed us that with Charlotte). Just the idea of Elena's free will being taken from her like that, it disgusts me. That's why I was sorry for her while she was under the effects of the sire bond, she wasn't herself, she was almost becoming a villain, but I understood why... Actually, the fact that Damon said that he never saw her more alive proves to me that he doesn't know her, not like Stefan does, not like her friends do, not like her brother does, not like Elijah did when he told Elena to keep her compassion because it was a gift... Elena is a completly different person and not a better person at all. She suffered so much when she became a vampire, she never wanted to be one, she cried many nights at home, she didn't want to hurt or bite people, and Damon says that he never seen her more alive? Why? What did she do or say since she became a vampire that made him say that? Because I saw a miserable Elena all season... And, from scene, I feel that Elena never wanted to be like this either but the sire bond made her:
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shoe20
Team Stefan
Posts: 1,739
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Post by shoe20 on Oct 14, 2013 17:00:31 GMT -5
I think this is part of the season six bamon plan as they have some chemistry in the books and they actually have a fanbase that ships them. I agree that damon's charm is that he is a bad boy that occasionally is good and has heart at times. I think sometimes they either don't know who he is or he does not know who he is. I mean he is a mess and has done horrible things so occasionally making up for that should not make people swoon and say he is the best choice for women. I enjoy his humor and his actions make me laugh. Would I choose him as a boyfriend absolutely not. Would I choose ian as a boyfriend absolutely lol. Damon's actions have not been that great and some things have been good. Do the pro's outweigh the con's anna? But this is who Damon is these are the things that make him who he is. Damon is lost Damon is insecure Damon is a mess Damon does terrible things. He does horrible things. I don't deny that. I won't ever deny that. But I do believe because he tries, because he attempts to do right to his wrongs because he tries to do whats right for his loved ones because of these reasons I believe his character can reach redemption. He fights to do the right thing and sometimes that can be the toughest part of life.
So maybe the people who swoon for him...its because they can relate to him. They can relate to their bad decision making. Relate to when they went down a road because they were backed into a corner. They can relate to trying to fix things but instead making a bigger mess of it. They can relate because we have found times when they had been irrational. They relate to Damon because he has so many flaws that people can't help but see him in themselves. Damon battles with himself. Just like we do constantly. He knows their is good. He knows there is bad. Just because we know its bad doesn't mean we always take the right path. And this is where people will either agree or disagree. Maybe you've felt you were put in a situation and you chose right. And that's why you can't relate to him. Maybe the choice was so easy for you that you didn't even think twice about making the decision. But to others this will be different. Maybe we needed to make the mistake. Because that's how we learn.
Does this make us a bad person?
One of my favourite quotes from Edison is "I have not failed. I have just found ten thousand ways that won't work." Life is a journey and its our mistakes that teach us.
I know this a show that its fiction and you can't take things in the literal sense. but you have to read between the lines, especially when concerning themes.
And lastly it's not about pro's outweighing the con's its the fact that he doesn't give up. That he still cares. That he continues on trying despite the urges to fall back into this other personality where he "pretends" to not care.
And this is why I love Damon Salvatore.
Does this mean I would date Damon. No. Because of the person I am I just don't see myself with a "Damon" ever. But I do see Elena with him. Yes. Because I see Damon characteristics in her and vice versa Elena characteristics in Damon. In my opinion together they bring out the better parts of each other.
Anna, what a great post........Honstly, one of the healthiest and logical "why I like Damon" posts I've read. I find nothing I would debate..........thought I don't feel the same. By identifying many of the faults I see in his character and explaining why that appeals to you, how could anyone do anything but..... Seriously, thanks for posting this incite about you character preference=)
I was pleased to find this here on the "debating thread" and certainly will look forward to a more controversial exchange, with this post in mind. WoW....reads more like a love fest than a debate thread..........lol
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Post by Anna on Oct 15, 2013 5:56:38 GMT -5
Anna, what a great post........Honstly, one of the healthiest and and logical "why I like Damon" posts I've read. I find nothing I would debate..........thought I don't feel the same. By identifying many of the faults I see in his character and explaining why that appeals to you, how could anyone do anything but..... Seriously, thanks for posting this incite about you character preference=)
I was pleased to find this here on the "debating thread" and certainly will look forward to a more controversial exchange, with this post in mind. WoW....reads more like a love fest than a debate thread..........lol
Naw thanks shoe20
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Post by damonsgirl on Oct 15, 2013 6:49:24 GMT -5
Is it so bad to be selfish and think about one's self? Look at Bonnie. She's not ready to be dead. She gave up her life. And though she won't say it she probably didn't realize how much her life was worth, how much it meant to her. I think there's selflessness and then there's a point where you have to stop and think about yourself as well. "She puts herself before everyone else" Are you telling me you wouldn't do the same that there has never been a time in your life, where you've gone "I'm sorry I need to do this for me" I'm actually glad that for once Elena is thinking about herself. I'm glad that she has wants and goes for it. Is it so bad to want something in her life. Time passes you by, and sometimes you have to take the oppurtunites life presents you. (Now don't get me wrong I hated that Elena and Damon had sex in 4x07 but I also see why she did. She wasn't going to deny this thing they had anymore. She took a chance. Life is short. Even for a vampire. ) And as for her friends. Caroline wasn't entirely on board with the whole Damon thing and I understand why but yeh that definitely creates tension. Especially when Caroline was such a big supporter of Stelena. If my friends didn't support me on something that made me happy and tried to make me feel guilty about it instead. Why would I put myself through that? And as for the brother thing. No. I don't agree with that. What suggests she doesn't care or treats him like crap? Cause as I see it. She left him with Damon. Someone she trusts. She wanted to drop school to make sure he was okay. And as for the Stefan thing. I think were missing a scene before Elena gives the cure to Stefan. I think they talk. But its not shown there. So its my little headcanon. But as it is. Stefan and Elena mutually broke up in 4x06. So I don't believe she really owes Stefan anything. She still cares for him. But she wants to give him the space. She's definitely had Stefan on her mind during the summer wanting to make sure he was alright. But she was trying to respect him and not hurt him anymore than she has. And so even though she wanted to call him she refrained. Putting Stefan before herself. Sounds like all that selflessness didn't entirely slip away. And yes Elena being selfish is a characteristic that has been brought out by Damon and I think its great for her, like i mentioned above, but I also think that her ability to be comfortable with herself and who she was, was a Damon thing. When everybody was telling her this wasn't who she was, that she couldn't be like this, her own friends, her brother. It was Damon that had reassured her. That told her she wasn't a failure at being a vampire. Anna, believe me, I find myself at Stefan and Elena, sometimes because they are too good, too selfless sometimes, and to people that don't deserve it... But, I'm not a hero/heroine in a tv show and I don't want to be one... IMO, the heroine in a tv show has to be good and Elena wasn't good in season 4. And, my problem is that, I can't agree that Elena is thinking about herself, I think she was mainly thinking about Damon, about what he wanted, about what would make him happy... I know you question the sire bond. I don't, I think the writers presented it clearly to us last season and the effects it has in a person (they showed us that with Charlotte). Just the idea of Elena's free will being taken from her like that, it disgusts me. That's why I was sorry for her while she was under the effects of the sire bond, she wasn't herself, she was almost becoming a villain, but I understood why... Actually, the fact that Damon said that he never saw her more alive proves to me that he doesn't know her, not like Stefan does, not like her friends do, not like her brother does, not like Elijah did when he told Elena to keep her compassion because it was a gift... Elena is a completly different person and not a better person at all. She suffered so much when she became a vampire, she never wanted to be one, she cried many nights at home, she didn't want to hurt or bite people, and Damon says that he never seen her more alive? Why? What did she do or say since she became a vampire that made him say that? Because I saw a miserable Elena all season... And, from scene, I feel that Elena never wanted to be like this either but the sire bond made her: Okay, there are a few points I would like to make, I just hope I can organise my thoughts in a way that makes sense: Deb- What do you mean Damon wasn't selfless enough to let her go when they learned of the SB? What more could he have done? He immediately tried to find a way to break it, He put a hold on their relationship then used the SB to make her leave him at the Lakehouse with JER. In TVD timeline, from when they got back from NO, only a day had passed. When did Elena stop having compassion and stop caring for her brother and friends? I don't think she did. I'm pretty sure she was shown to be upset when she killed that deer for food She had lots of compassion for poor April at the funeral/ memorial She selflessly went into the Grill to rescue her brother from Connor. She felt intense remorse when She killed Connor She told Stefan she didn't want the cure if it meant Jer losing his humanity. She rescued Caroline from the Hybrids and offered to trade herself for her. She was distraught when Jer died. Once her Humanity was off, she didn't care about anyone but herself and was competely horrible, I agree, but you can't be compassionate and selfless when you can't feel. Once her humanity had resurfaced, her compassion and love came back. She gave Stefan the cure, the one thing she had wanted all season long, because she felt he needed it more. She put his needs above her own in that moment. I thought that was a beautiful scene, and shows how deep the feeling of friendship is between them. I don't doubt the SB, it is canon. Some of Elenas actions were definately a result of the SB. What is also canon, is that the sire bond is gone. Elena has her agency again and is free to make her own choices. She chose to go to college and leave Jer with her boyfriend, who she trusts. That is not selfish, its realistic. Is she supposed to give up her life to stay home and look after Jer? Jeremy and Elenas story of how he is not dead doesn't bother me, what else could they say?
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Post by Anna on Oct 15, 2013 7:50:06 GMT -5
Anna, believe me, I find myself at Stefan and Elena, sometimes because they are too good, too selfless sometimes, and to people that don't deserve it... But, I'm not a hero/heroine in a tv show and I don't want to be one... IMO, the heroine in a tv show has to be good and Elena wasn't good in season 4. And, my problem is that, I can't agree that Elena is thinking about herself, I think she was mainly thinking about Damon, about what he wanted, about what would make him happy... I know you question the sire bond. I don't, I think the writers presented it clearly to us last season and the effects it has in a person (they showed us that with Charlotte). Just the idea of Elena's free will being taken from her like that, it disgusts me. That's why I was sorry for her while she was under the effects of the sire bond, she wasn't herself, she was almost becoming a villain, but I understood why... Actually, the fact that Damon said that he never saw her more alive proves to me that he doesn't know her, not like Stefan does, not like her friends do, not like her brother does, not like Elijah did when he told Elena to keep her compassion because it was a gift... Elena is a completely different person and not a better person at all. She suffered so much when she became a vampire, she never wanted to be one, she cried many nights at home, she didn't want to hurt or bite people, and Damon says that he never seen her more alive? Why? What did she do or say since she became a vampire that made him say that? Because I saw a miserable Elena all season... And, from scene, I feel that Elena never wanted to be like this either but the sire bond made her: Well I first of all I don't see Elena as the heroine of this show at least not lately, not since S2(even then it was questionable to me, she was always more of a martyr than a heroine nope wait i recant that she became a heroine when she decided to fight for life rather than just hand herself over) but especially not in S4. And I think that's okay. I'm okay with that. And I understand many might not be okay with that. But to me I love it. I love this 'regression' in her character because Elena doesn't have to be perfect... She lives up to all these expectations from everyone, identity ones being the main one. "She's like Katherine, she's not katherine" And Yeh that's gotta be tough. And then on top of that the Damon identity issues that you brought up. "She's like me." She wants to be Elena. That's what scares her. That's what horrifies her. She has always done things a certain way so that she could avoid being someone else. This is a thing she battles internally within herself. She doesn't want to be Katherine, she doesn't want to be like anyone, but herself. That was one of the biggest arcs Elena went through in Season 4. Choosing her own path. Now we're never going to agree with the sirebond. And I think I've explained why so I won't go into that again. And so I will skip the whole Elena's free will. Because I don't believe it was ever stripped. (Charlotte was crazy and not the best example) As for the alive comment. You're missing my point. It's not so much about the alive comment. But the fact that she felt she was failing at being a vampire and that it was Damon who told her she wasn't. Because Damon had seen her throughout the entire transition, when she couldn't drink the animal blood, when she couldn't drink the blood bag, when she could only drink from Matt, when they went to the frat party and she learnt to "snatch, eat and erase", when she slipped up and lost control with matt. He was there. He was there the entire time. And for him to tell her that she wasn't failing it meant the world to her. That maybe the things she was feeling wasn't completely wrong. That maybe she was normal. And also how are we to judge what alive meant to either of them. "Alive" has so many different meanings. I believe in the context it meant, living, striving forward. Damon watched her as she spat out blood and said "Maybe I'm better of dead". then watched her carry on, adapt to being a vampire, watched a rollercoaster of emotions run through her and watched her grow. Nobody said that to be alive you had to have a smile on your face. And also in 4x07 we start to see this acceptance of her being a vampire. "This is who I am now." Without anyone's help.(if i remember correctly) To me... thats alive. To Damon that could have been alive. To see that short journey in 4x01-4x07 as she transitioned was beautiful. Anyway back to her "regression" as a character. Elena was perceived good from the start. For her character to fully develop we needed to see some kind of downtown journey so that we could see the build up. Characters like Caroline, Tyler and even Damon, they all started from the bottom and worked their way up with their character development. And you know what was fantastic about all those characters. Their Journey. I loved seeing them rebuild themselves, watching them grow, watching them start to see things different. Watching a character develop is the most beautiful thing in a tv show its one of the main reasons I watch tv shows. ANd its why I love Elena's regression cause when a character is at rock bottom the only place to go is back up. (And I see the time its taken me to write this damonsgirl has already responded so now you have two different perspectives. haha)
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Post by Anna on Oct 15, 2013 8:08:14 GMT -5
The point deb was making is that, that hasn't been Elena from s1-s4X06. Elena wasn't selfish. This is growth in her character development but rather a regression. Elena not only left Jeremy with his murderer, s2 Damon snapped his neck, but then Damon turned around and got Jeremy to protect his other murderer Katherine, s4. Jeremy almost died in 5x01 and you still think it's ok for Elena to trust Damon? Even though Damon didn't cause the car crash, Damon should know that Katherine will do anything to survive so anyone, especially Damon who has known Katherine the longest, should have known that putting Jeremy with Katherine is a stupid, dangerous thing to do. Also, Elena put the blame for the house burning down on Jeremy. This was extremely selfish of her. And it wasn't selfish in a sense of Elena needs to do something good for herself. It was the kind of selfish where Elena just took the easy way out. She made Jeremy take the blame or something horrific that happened. Nice sister. Elena would have never done this before. Elena would have done everything in her power to protect Jeremy so it shows again how she is regressing instead of progressing as a character. Anna there's no such thing as headcanon. You can't just assume a scene is missing just so it makes the character you like seem better. Okay I knew i was forgetting something in my other post. And here it is. a) Jeremy again is his own person. He can say no. He can't be compelled. Nobody can force him to do anything. IF Jeremy was really that uncomfortable...do you really think he'd just go along with it all? If he didn't want to live at Salvatore's house, you don't think he'd be staying at Matt's place aka the Lockwood mansion where there is plenty of room. b) As we have seen Jeremy can take care of himself. He is stronger than Katherine. (He works out). Back to the Jeremy being his own person. If he didn't want to do it he wouldn't have. Jeremy has always been pushing to be part of things. Right from the start. Damon understands that, Jeremy understands that. c) Elena didn't make Jeremy do anything. Again he could have said no. They were trying to be rational, trying to come up with a reason as to why the house was burnt down. Jeremy is a good person. And he watched Elena struggle, himself. How do we know that this wasn't Jer's idea? (i need to rewatch the scene to make a better judgement)
d) You're right about the headcanon. I will recant the statement. But tbh i didn't say what they talked about so it wasn't a biased headcanon , i just said they talked and from the episode it really did look like we cut into their convo. BUT anyway despite the headcanon, what i said after still remains true. They were mutually broken up, she doesn't owe Stefan anything.
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Post by Ruby on Oct 15, 2013 10:44:45 GMT -5
Admin Note: *
So I wanted to give you guys an awesome shoutout for taking advantage of the Debate thread and making it into a healthy debate with very intel responses. Just wanted to let you all know if you have any last responses to this topic thats being debated please make them so we can close off this debate and move forward for a next debate. Thank you </img>
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shoe20
Team Stefan
Posts: 1,739
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Post by shoe20 on Oct 15, 2013 11:15:08 GMT -5
Anna, napoli, deb, damonsgirl .....cause it's for all .... you too RubyOK girls, jumping in. Posting this separately, because of Anna's great post on the basis of her feeling for her preference. I'll try to keep is short, but I'm already realizing the difficulty of summarizing 4 yrs of feelings in 20 words or less. ha........I'm new to the board but realize the importance of understand where comments are coming from.
- Overview...Elena is the plot-device for the salvation of "both" brothers, through her love for each... Obvious...and no doubt that "both" brothers, have serious issues to overcome. Damon...insecurity and rejection. Stefan...denial and self-loathing
- Damon.......His base character is one I find to be least attractive in a male. The sarky, condensing, insecure,"Cockiness' to mask fear" thing is at the bottom of my list....Is he all bad?.... doesn't love his brother and only lives to punish him!....of course NOT!... Is his driving motivation "to have his love returned"....absolutely!! But in achieving his goal, he's now dealing with the "guilt" that comes with "getting his brother's girl" and guilt is something new for him....So for a character who masks his "true feelings" with the "selfish/I don't care attitude", his connection to Elena is going to make him... vulnerable... in touch with suppressed emotions...responsible for his actions...and open the door to his salvation. At lease she's providing these options by returning his love.
- Elena.....The girl, who written ... selfless...compassionate...sacrificing...loved ones feelings first... in S1-2-3.... was systematically destroyed in S4 (painful transformation, for all)... through...her death..becoming the thing "she never wanted to be"...SB...and losing her "humanity" and her brother... to make the inevitable transition between brothers, possible. Now she is becoming more in touch with her "selfish side" In the SL at present she has accomplished two things she never wanted...coming between the brothers and losing one of them. Yes.... she STILL loves both, but presently "in love" status has changed.
- Stefen....YES...he is my preference of the two brothers personalities, no doubt in my mind...is he F'ed up too..absolutely. Where Damon uses anger and the "I don't care attitude" to deal with his "fear of rejection"......Stefan uses "denial and self loathing" to deal with his character flaws. I was ticked at the writers for over-painting SE for 3 yrs before they made the inevitable switch to DE, but in hind sight maybe it was necessary to have " the ILU's and intimate dialogue ' for Stefan to trust and give his "heart" to Elena....so her choice could "rip it out" Although it took me several attempts to swallow this "bitter pill"... the "devastating" loss of her love, was probably the only way to facilitate the "needed growth: in his character and open "his door to salvation."
So there's the nutshell.... Keep in mind when I post a "slam" or what you perceive to be "hateful" comment about Damon.....It's simply, I identify more with Stefans "denial" than Damon's "insecurity". In fact, rather than going through this again, I'll keep a post-link to refer back when needed. So when I'm debating... I'm posting character flaws "as I see them" rather than "all out hate" for the whole character. Actually from a debate point of view, I feel the SE / S has the advantage by the black and white style of writing. Because of the "target audience" challenge in seeing "grayness" the writers have over-painted Stefan's "white-knight" and Damon's "Bad-Boy" qualities.........so S shippers have more ammo and D shippers are left "defending" the sometimes indefensible. (lucky me) This charges the discussion w/emotional defenses like "Damon Logic" and explaining his intention was just the "opposite of what he said".... NEWS FLASH girls, men are shallow, so our default, is to say what we mean (listen, don't assume there's a complex meaning) (exception, of course is the occasional lie to get what we want.(usually one of you) lol Where women are like an onion(many layers) - men are like a bowling ball. Ok..starting to ramble..... Last thought.....I honestly think neither brother will be the "end-game" final choice. That's not the point of the series. For me it's not "WHO gets the girl" but "HOW, the girl enabled their salvation"!
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shoe20
Team Stefan
Posts: 1,739
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Post by shoe20 on Oct 15, 2013 11:36:50 GMT -5
Wow Ruby, just got in and it's over? I feel "empty" ...lol
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Post by Ruby on Oct 15, 2013 12:07:14 GMT -5
Wow Ruby, just got in and it's over? I feel "empty" ...lol Well you did an awesome wrap up haha
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Post by napoli on Oct 15, 2013 12:31:41 GMT -5
Response damonsgirl Deb- What do you mean Damon wasn't selfless enough to let her go when they learned of the SB? What more could he have done? He immediately tried to find a way to break it, He put a hold on their relationship then used the SB to make her leave him at the Lakehouse with JER. In TVD timeline, from when they got back from NO, only a day had passed.Once Damon discovered how to work around the sire bond he never invoked the proper wording to set Elena free. Nandi told Damon (4x08): 'You want her free you have to set her free. Tell her to live her life without you, never think of you again, to stop caring about you and then leave her. That's the only way around the sire bond.' To Charlotte, Damon said the following to set her free (4x08): 'I need to get on with my life and so do you. If you want to make me happy you will (live without Damon), just forget about me. You'll never think of me again and you'll find someone new and you'll be happier than ever. And I'm never going to be happy until you realize that you're never gonna have the life you deserve if I'm in it. Goodbye Charlotte.' And most importantly Damon physically left Charlotte. To Elena, Damon said the following (4x09): 'You're going to go home. I'm gonna stay here with Jeremy and help him complete the mark. I'll teach him how to hunt. I'll protect him and we'll kill vampires without you. I'm setting you free Elena. This is what I want. This is what will make me happy.' When you compare the wording between what Nandi said, what Damon said to Charlotte versus what Damon said to Elena, it's clear that Damon didn't say anything as far reaching as he was supposed to, to set Elena free of the sire bond. And it's not just his words that failed Damon either. Damon also never left Elena. He told her to go home and for a few days they were apart but Nandi told Damon he would have to leave permanently. Damon left Charlotte but he couldn't leave Elena. This is why deb said that Damon is selfish with Elena. In an interview after 4x09 aired Julie Plec stated: 'What Damon could have said is 'Go away, never see me again, stop thinking about me, stop caring about me, go on with your life, go live a happy life.' That's what he had to say to Charlotte when all was said and done. What he instead said was 'Go home, leave this house, I'll do this without you,' so unfortunately even in being noble -- which, it was noble in the moment because he was feeling the guilt of his own betrayal of Stefan -- he didn't quite go full monty as far as what he should have instructed her to do.' www.hollywood.com/news/tv/46127490/vampire-diaries-boss-talks-klaus-holiday-massacre-the-sire-bond-and-more?page=allEven though Damon was trying to do the right thing, he still failed and he failed because he is selfish. Damon had no problem telling Charlotte to go live her own life and leave her but he wouldn't do it for Elena. She chose to go to college and leave Jer with her boyfriend, who she trusts. That is not selfish, its realistic. Is she supposed to give up her life to stay home and look after Jer?
Elena is a vampire versus her brother who is human. Given that everyone already believed that Jeremy was dead it wouldn't be too much at all for Elena to temporarily put her life on hold to make sure Jeremy was okay even if what for a few days. Heck even a week! It shouldn't be a big deal for Elena after all she is a vampire and has literally an eternity to do as she wants versus her brother who does not. I'm pretty sure she was shown to be upset when she killed that deer for food She had lots of compassion for poor April at the funeral/ memorial She selflessly went into the Grill to rescue her brother from Connor. She felt intense remorse when She killed ConnorThese all took place prior to the sire bond taking full effect. Elena was still fighting the feeling that she was losing herself so it makes sense that she was still compassionate during this time. She told Stefan she didn't want the cure if it meant Jer losing his humanity.Elena ended up helping Jeremy kill Kol which was one of the most dangerous things she has ever made Jeremy do so this shows her lack of compassion and judgement and that she is selfish because Jeremy was trying to get the cure for her. She rescued Caroline from the Hybrids and offered to trade herself for her. Agreed. She was distraught when Jer died. This shows Elena's grief and not compassion. There aren't many examples at all of Elena being compassionate while she was fully sired to Damon. Jeremy and Elenas story of how he is not dead doesn't bother me, what else could they say?Let's see instead of forcing Jeremy to take the blame for her own actions of burning the house down, they could have said there was a gas leak, electrical problem, lighting struck, unknown arsonist, candle left unattended...I can go on but I think you get my point. Liz is on their side so they could have had any story where Jeremy was protected instead of as a druggie who faked his own death and is the false culprit even as an accident. Don't you find it interesting she wouldn't even take a few days to help her brother out yet now that she knows about Stefan being in danger she never even questioned leaving Whitmore. Stefan brings out the best in her so her compassion is coming out again. And as you already mentioned Elena was compassionate with Stefan when she gave him the cure. Another example of how Stefan brings out the best in Elena. Response AnnaOkay I knew i was forgetting something in my other post. And here it is.
a) Jeremy again is his own person. He can say no. He can't be compelled. Nobody can force him to do anything. IF Jeremy was really that uncomfortable...do you really think he'd just go along with it all? If he didn't want to live at Salvatore's house, you don't think he'd be staying at Matt's place aka the Lockwood mansion where there is plenty of room. Jeremy loves and trusts his sister so this is why he didn't put up a fuss. Looking back at what ended up happening in 5x01, Jeremy got bullied at school and he ended up almost dying from protecting Katherine do you honestly believe Elena made the right call by leaving him alone with Damon? Jeremy can take care of himself to a point but should he have had to take the blame for the fire when he didn't do it? Should Jeremy have had to admit to still being a druggie even though he was dead! I've already gone through the other scenarios they could have used. b) As we have seen Jeremy can take care of himself. He is stronger than Katherine. (He works out). Back to the Jeremy being his own person. If he didn't want to do it he wouldn't have. Jeremy has always been pushing to be part of things. Right from the start. Damon understands that, Jeremy understands that. Jeremy wasn't able to take care of himself with Katherine. Jeremy almost died! Even though he stronger than her, working out didn't help him when Katherine grabbed the wheel and forced a head on collision. Damon was indirectly responsible for the car accident with Katherine because he told Jeremy to protect her. Damon has known Katherine the longest so Damon should have known that Katherine would do anything, including killing Jeremy to get away from Silas. c) Elena didn't make Jeremy do anything. Again he could have said no. They were trying to be rational, trying to come up with a reason as to why the house was burnt down. Jeremy is a good person. And he watched Elena struggle, himself. How do we know that this wasn't Jer's idea? (i need to rewatch the scene to make a better judgement)
You need to rewatch the scene because Elena is coaxing him to take the blame by helping him practice his cover story. Jeremy could have said no but Elena is the older sister who could have protected her brother instead of letting him take the fall. This shows Elena's lack of judgement and not Jeremy's. Jeremy hasn't watched Elena struggling in recent months. Her and Damon have been like bunny rabbits. I wouldn't call that struggling. Even if it was Jeremy's idea, as his older sister who is powerful because she is a vampire she should have taken the fall to protect him. That's what you do when you love someone, you try to protect them. d) You're right about the headcanon. I will recant the statement. But tbh i didn't say what they talked about so it wasn't a biased headcanon , i just said they talked and from the episode it really did look like we cut into their convo. BUT anyway despite the headcanon, what i said after still remains true. They were mutually broken up, she doesn't owe Stefan anything. It's not about owing Stefan anything. It's about being a decent person. When Stefan saved Damon from the werewolf venom, Stefan did it out of being a loving and caring brother and not because he owed Damon anything. If we only did decent things in this world because we owed it to other people, the world would be a disgusting place to live.
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Post by napoli on Oct 15, 2013 12:37:49 GMT -5
Wow Ruby, just got in and it's over? I feel "empty" ...lol Well you did an awesome wrap up haha Sorry Ruby! I posted and then read your message. Is there a maximum day limit for debates and if so how many days so I know for the future?
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Post by Ruby on Oct 15, 2013 13:01:56 GMT -5
Well you did an awesome wrap up haha Sorry Ruby! I posted and then read your message. Is there a maximum day limit for debates and if so how many days so I know for the future? No there's no minimum it was just because you guys have been discussing it back and fourth for a couple of days. If you feel there's more to elaborate on and you feel you guys are not going in circles be my guest in continuing.
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