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Post by napoli on Mar 22, 2014 18:13:11 GMT -5
My theory of why the show went down hill is because Kevin Williamson left. KW was the show. When JP took over she ruined the show.
KW was still around during S3 the show was still good. S4 KW was gone, the show went to hell.
I loved season1+2, really really liked season 3 and even season 4, but this season 5 is killing me since The Cell...so I was really surprised that I watched last night's epsiode 2 times. Usually I watch an episode 3-5 times, I have missed this enthusiasm and passion and also didn't have anything to write about in the comments and roundtables section about TVD. With yesterdays episode I am having a little hope again. Another thing is that I really like the Originals and I don't think JP is doing a bad job there at all. The sad thing about TVD (I don't know about other shows) is all this Fanservice!!! I think that internet and twitter and other platforms make such wildfires possible, bec things got out of hand (death threats etc). Twenty years ago, such a behaviour wasn't possible in masses. On the other hand internet is also a blessing. For one we foreigners can watch the show online in ENGLISH!!! and communicate with other fans and I still listen to many podcasts about TVD. I am quite content that I longed to watch the episode a second time yesterday. That is a good sign I'm like you moshe12. I used to watch each episode over and over and restart the season from the beginning but not anymore. I stopped at 4x10 and now I watch each episode just once and may review specific scenes to confirm what happened. I'm no where near watching a second time out of sheer enjoyment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 5:31:47 GMT -5
I loved season1+2, really really liked season 3 and even season 4, but this season 5 is killing me since The Cell...so I was really surprised that I watched last night's epsiode 2 times. Usually I watch an episode 3-5 times, I have missed this enthusiasm and passion and also didn't have anything to write about in the comments and roundtables section about TVD. With yesterdays episode I am having a little hope again. Another thing is that I really like the Originals and I don't think JP is doing a bad job there at all. The sad thing about TVD (I don't know about other shows) is all this Fanservice!!! I think that internet and twitter and other platforms make such wildfires possible, bec things got out of hand (death threats etc). Twenty years ago, such a behaviour wasn't possible in masses. On the other hand internet is also a blessing. For one we foreigners can watch the show online in ENGLISH!!! and communicate with other fans and I still listen to many podcasts about TVD. I am quite content that I longed to watch the episode a second time yesterday. That is a good sign I'm like you moshe12. I used to watch each episode over and over and restart the season from the beginning but not anymore. I stopped at 4x10 and now I watch each episode just once and may review specific scenes to confirm what happened. I'm no where near watching a second time out of sheer enjoyment. I know Napoli. It's kind of sad. TVD used to be my favourite tv show and I could comment, rant and theorize over and about it constantly. Watch, rewatch etc. The show is getting watery... On the other hand I feel very attached to certain characters and they are like a second family for me. Ironically I observe one thing over and over again, not only here but also other fansites (VDN) includes me as well. For people that are supposed to be not that invested in the series anymore, there are surprisingly still very very many comments and rants and theories and opinions out there. Doesn't really not leave us untouched the SL n one way or the other
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2014 15:34:02 GMT -5
What do you think of the interview with Caroline Dries in which she said that major characters are dying this season to make more screen time for all of the surviving characters next season? Supposedly Matt is going to have his own love story in Season 6 because there will finally be room for that. Also, Paul Wesley told someone that the stories will be told in different locations, something about "redefining the parameters of the show." I take that to mean that even though Caroline Dries refuses to show the dark dimension that Katherine was dragged into, it looks like the characters who die in the Season 5 finale will be shown about once every episode or once every couple of episodes "at peace." My theory is that the big change coming that people will wonder about is that characters will be seen "at peace" once in a while over the course of the season, and we will start to understand what that actually means and how characters there relate to living characters while the show focuses mainly on life moving on in Mystic Falls.
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Post by napoli on May 3, 2014 19:50:28 GMT -5
What do you think of the interview with Caroline Dries in which she said that major characters are dying this season to make more screen time for all of the surviving characters next season? Supposedly Matt is going to have his own love story in Season 6 because there will finally be room for that. Also, Paul Wesley told someone that the stories will be told in different locations, something about "redefining the parameters of the show." I take that to mean that even though Caroline Dries refuses to show the dark dimension that Katherine was dragged into, it looks like the characters who die in the Season 5 finale will be shown about once every episode or once every couple of episodes "at peace." My theory is that the big change coming that people will wonder about is that characters will be seen "at peace" once in a while over the course of the season, and we will start to understand what that actually means and how characters there relate to living characters while the show focuses mainly on life moving on in Mystic Falls. Interesting theory. I definitely agree that there will be a separation between the MF gang for awhile but they will all be brought together so if someone is in the dark dimension (or whatever they want to call it) eventually they will be reunited with the rest of the gang. I just don't see them keeping them separate permanently.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 9:17:04 GMT -5
What do you think of the interview with Caroline Dries in which she said that major characters are dying this season to make more screen time for all of the surviving characters next season? Supposedly Matt is going to have his own love story in Season 6 because there will finally be room for that. Also, Paul Wesley told someone that the stories will be told in different locations, something about "redefining the parameters of the show." I take that to mean that even though Caroline Dries refuses to show the dark dimension that Katherine was dragged into, it looks like the characters who die in the Season 5 finale will be shown about once every episode or once every couple of episodes "at peace." My theory is that the big change coming that people will wonder about is that characters will be seen "at peace" once in a while over the course of the season, and we will start to understand what that actually means and how characters there relate to living characters while the show focuses mainly on life moving on in Mystic Falls. Interesting theory. I definitely agree that there will be a separation between the MF gang for awhile but they will all be brought together so if someone is in the dark dimension (or whatever they want to call it) eventually they will be reunited with the rest of the gang. I just don't see them keeping them separate permanently. Well, as of now the only known character in the dark dimension is Katherine. No one knows yet exactly what's happening to the spirits on the Other Side who are getting swept away. I keep thinking that since people who were too evil to make it to the Other Side go to the dark dimension, and the Other Side was created as a purgatory for supernaturals because Qetsiyah wanted to keep Silas from joining Amara "at peace" (which was a mistake because she didn't know that Amara was also a doppelganger and would go to the Other Side too), then those spirits getting swept away from the Other Side might be going away to be "at peace." The concept has been referred to on the show before strictly as a place or a state of being for humans to go when they die, but that could have been because the Other Side has existed for 2,000 years and no one knew it could be destroyed. Maybe whoever or whatever decides where the dead go weighs the good and bad in supernaturals and decides that regardless of the bad they've done, for some reason or another most of them belong "at peace," but Qetsiyah's purgatory keeps those supernaturals trapped close to the living world. While what's happening to the spirits on the Other Side is terrifying and resembles what happened to Katherine, how the supernaturals get where they're going could be irrelevant. I think spirits are being taken by force away from the Other Side before it self-destructs in order to protect the spirits and maintain some kind of order among the dead while the destruction of the Other Side causes chaos. We already know where Katherine went, but perhaps Season 6 will give us glimpses into where the others went and will go, and we'll get an idea of what "at peace" actually means since it was made clear that we won't be seeing the dark dimension and some fans already harass EPs incessantly about character deaths.
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Post by napoli on May 4, 2014 11:46:43 GMT -5
Well, as of now the only known character in the dark dimension is Katherine. No one knows yet exactly what's happening to the spirits on the Other Side who are getting swept away. I keep thinking that since people who were too evil to make it to the Other Side go to the dark dimension, and the Other Side was created as a purgatory for supernaturals because Qetsiyah wanted to keep Silas from joining Amara "at peace" (which was a mistake because she didn't know that Amara was also a doppelganger and would go to the Other Side too), then those spirits getting swept away from the Other Side might be going away to be "at peace." The concept has been referred to on the show before strictly as a place or a state of being for humans to go when they die, but that could have been because the Other Side has existed for 2,000 years and no one knew it could be destroyed. Maybe whoever or whatever decides where the dead go weighs the good and bad in supernaturals and decides that regardless of the bad they've done, for some reason or another most of them belong "at peace," but Qetsiyah's purgatory keeps those supernaturals trapped close to the living world. While what's happening to the spirits on the Other Side is terrifying and resembles what happened to Katherine, how the supernaturals get where they're going could be irrelevant. I think spirits are being taken by force away from the Other Side before it self-destructs in order to protect the spirits and maintain some kind of order among the dead while the destruction of the Other Side causes chaos. We already know where Katherine went, but perhaps Season 6 will give us glimpses into where the others went and will go, and we'll get an idea of what "at peace" actually means since it was made clear that we won't be seeing the dark dimension and some fans already harass EPs incessantly about character deaths. I agree that those being swept away might be finding peace instead of going to a dark place as Katherine so that would be a fitting end. You're right that even Lexi mentioned in 4x23 that she believes after a certain amount of time they (all those on the other side) would eventually find peace. Btw, Amara wasn't a doppelganger because she was the original. Also she wasn't a traveler and died as a human so just like Aunt Jenna, Amara didn't go to the other side but found peace instead. Amara and Silas were tragically kept apart by Quetsiyah. That will be another great thing about the other side disappearing and the supernaturals finding peace - Amara and Silas will be together forever. Who says the universe doesn't win in the end?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 12:36:17 GMT -5
Well, as of now the only known character in the dark dimension is Katherine. No one knows yet exactly what's happening to the spirits on the Other Side who are getting swept away. I keep thinking that since people who were too evil to make it to the Other Side go to the dark dimension, and the Other Side was created as a purgatory for supernaturals because Qetsiyah wanted to keep Silas from joining Amara "at peace" (which was a mistake because she didn't know that Amara was also a doppelganger and would go to the Other Side too), then those spirits getting swept away from the Other Side might be going away to be "at peace." The concept has been referred to on the show before strictly as a place or a state of being for humans to go when they die, but that could have been because the Other Side has existed for 2,000 years and no one knew it could be destroyed. Maybe whoever or whatever decides where the dead go weighs the good and bad in supernaturals and decides that regardless of the bad they've done, for some reason or another most of them belong "at peace," but Qetsiyah's purgatory keeps those supernaturals trapped close to the living world. While what's happening to the spirits on the Other Side is terrifying and resembles what happened to Katherine, how the supernaturals get where they're going could be irrelevant. I think spirits are being taken by force away from the Other Side before it self-destructs in order to protect the spirits and maintain some kind of order among the dead while the destruction of the Other Side causes chaos. We already know where Katherine went, but perhaps Season 6 will give us glimpses into where the others went and will go, and we'll get an idea of what "at peace" actually means since it was made clear that we won't be seeing the dark dimension and some fans already harass EPs incessantly about character deaths. I agree that those being swept away might be finding peace instead of going to a dark place as Katherine so that would be a fitting end. You're right that even Lexi mentioned in 4x23 that she believes after a certain amount of time they (all those on the other side) would eventually find peace. Btw, Amara wasn't a doppelganger because she was the original. Also she wasn't a traveler and died as a human so just like Aunt Jenna, Amara didn't go to the other side but found peace instead. Amara and Silas were tragically kept apart by Quetsiyah. That will be another great thing about the other side disappearing and the supernaturals finding peace - Amara and Silas will be together forever. Who says the universe doesn't win in the end? Amara had to be a doppelganger because her blood was used for Tessa's spell to resurrect Bonnie as the new anchor. Tessa told Damon that he had three doppelgangers around him and that was more than enough power to bring Bonnie back as Amara's replacement. It seems that there's a plot hole here. Markos said that the curse happened after Qetsiyah created the Other Side, which made it possible for dead witches to give power to living witches descended from them. The fact that there were two ways to use magic eventually led to a rift between travelers, who get power from their own life force after they leave their bodies for a while, and witches, who get power from spirits on the Other Side. Some web sites claim, and it has been mentioned briefly, that the original people who doppelgangers are carbon copies of are also considered doppelgangers. Silas called himself a doppelganger of Stefan. Silas and Qetsiyah both claimed that doppelgangers started with a horrific tragedy (what Silas, Qetsiyah, and Amara did to each other) and they're always meant to come together and cause chaos. Then Markos said that the prophecy had been bastardized over the centuries and he created doppelgangers himself 2,000 years ago, which is supposed to be about the same time that Silas and Amara lived, just so that Markos could break a curse. Either someone is lying or mistaken or the writers messed up. I'm going to ignore the Silas and Amara storyline.
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Post by napoli on May 4, 2014 13:25:21 GMT -5
Amara had to be a doppelganger because her blood was used for Tessa's spell to resurrect Bonnie as the new anchor. Tessa told Damon that he had three doppelgangers around him and that was more than enough power to bring Bonnie back as Amara's replacement. It seems that there's a plot hole here. Markos said that the curse happened after Qetsiyah created the Other Side, which made it possible for dead witches to give power to living witches descended from them. The fact that there were two ways to use magic eventually led to a rift between travelers, who get power from their own life force after they leave their bodies for a while, and witches, who get power from spirits on the Other Side. Some web sites claim, and it has been mentioned briefly, that the original people who doppelgangers are carbon copies of are also considered doppelgangers. Silas called himself a doppelganger of Stefan. Silas and Qetsiyah both claimed that doppelgangers started with a horrific tragedy (what Silas, Qetsiyah, and Amara did to each other) and they're always meant to come together and cause chaos. Then Markos said that the prophecy had been bastardized over the centuries and he created doppelgangers himself 2,000 years ago, which is supposed to be about the same time that Silas and Amara lived, just so that Markos could break a curse. Either someone is lying or mistaken or the writers messed up. I'm going to ignore the Silas and Amara storyline. Another logic fail for the TVD writers. It isn't the first and sadly probably won't be the last. Even if Amara is a doppelganger the story line was clear that Amara found peace and did not go to the other side. I wish I could ignore whole sections of TVD too because then Damon would be non-existent. I still like the Amara/Silas love story because I believe they will parallel SE especially if they really do end up together.
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Kiki
Team Stefan
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Post by Kiki on May 4, 2014 13:30:50 GMT -5
What about Klaus? He traveled into Alaric and Tyler's body. Is he a traveler, too? Or can witches create travelers? If witches can make anyone travel into another body why do travelers need to be a special species? Therefore I think Klaus is a traveler, too. Which means vampires can be travelers? Why lost Nadia her traveler status when she became a vampire?
I'm confused
@seiwriter I think you found something here. Didn't we have the topic of two different kind of magics already? Good magic like Grams told Bonnie and dark magic the one Bonnie got into when she wanted more power. The dead witches where angry with her when she did dark magic. How was it called? Expression or something like that?
Maybe travelers use dark magic and the other witches use good magic? Good magic the one that is drawn from dead witches and dark magic the one that is created with bad consequences?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 16:47:34 GMT -5
What about Klaus? He traveled into Alaric and Tyler's body. Is he a traveler, too? Or can witches create travelers? If witches can make anyone travel into another body why do travelers need to be a special species? Therefore I think Klaus is a traveler, too. Which means vampires can be travelers? Why lost Nadia her traveler status when she became a vampire? I'm confused @seiwriter I think you found something here. Didn't we have the topic of two different kind of magics already? Good magic like Grams told Bonnie and dark magic the one Bonnie got into when she wanted more power. The dead witches where angry with her when she did dark magic. How was it called? Expression or something like that? Maybe travelers use dark magic and the other witches use good magic? Good magic the one that is drawn from dead witches and dark magic the one that is created with bad consequences? OMG, I've been saying for ages that Klaus is a traveler. I don't think all travelers are cursed, and I know Caroline Dries said that they're not all on Markos' side, either. Nadia was supposed to have lost her ability to do magic when she became a vampire, yet somehow she was able to say a spell phrase to push Elena back in her head when Katherine and Elena were fighting over Elena's body. Maybe Nadia's power as a traveler is just very limited because she's a vampire. After hearing what Markos said about Tyler being a hybrid and it being a problem for a Traveler wanting control of his body, the fact that Elena could fight over her own body seemed to me to be another indication that she's some type of hybrid. The only problem with this theory is that Matt and Gregor somehow shared a body, but Matt wasn't able to fight Gregor off, so Gregor didn't need to put Matt in a dead body. Gregor himself might have been on the Other Side when he wasn't controlling Matt's body, and he probably pushed Matt there when he took control. Gregor was using Matt as a hiding place from Silas and anyone else who wanted to kill him. Matt was only aware of lost time until Gregor actually left a message for him. I also think that Elena is a traveler now. It would explain her mild clairvoyance while she had that virus and her visions of sex with Damon after she was cured. I think Damon was using some form of compulsion to make her want to sleep with him, and something new in her helped her realize that she was being controlled. She said something about Damon controlling her when she walked out on him near the end of Episode 17. I don't want to start a debate, but I think the sire bond was only weakened or changed by Elena's time with her humanity turned off. It was said that Expression is so powerful that it can consume a person and make them go dark if they can't control it. Travelers definitely use Expression, and whether or not they control it probably defines what kind of people they are. Bonnie struggled to control Expression because of Silas, but she was unique in that she was a witch who became a traveler with the help of someone who hypnotized her. I think Shane made Bonnie leave her body for a while and come back to it, which was possible because Bonnie is descended from a traveler: Qetsiyah. Witches and travelers probably started hating each other because witches don't understand why travelers insist on continuing to use Expression when they can get power from spirits. Travelers probably use Expression instead of taking the witch route because, as Klaus said, "witches are only as powerful as their dead." If that wasn't a screaming hint that Klaus is a traveler, I don't know what is. Markos' tribe of Travelers probably tried to conquer a village or something 2,000 years ago, and Luke and Liv's ancestral coven got so upset that they cursed the earth so that the tribe wouldn't be able to gather together in one place for very long without getting scattered by some violent incident. The actual war probably started when Travelers started gathering for the express purpose of breaking the curse. Other than that, I would imagine that travelers are to witches what vampires are to werewolves. Some supernaturals just don't feel comfortable around each other because of their species, and at times they'll start wars with each other. Come to think of it, travelers, witches, and werewolves are all uncomfortable and at times hostile around vampires for one reason or another. It comes from a place of fear, sort of like racism.
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Ying
New Member
Team Delena , Root for Elena/Katherine/Bekah.
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Post by Ying on May 17, 2014 4:37:31 GMT -5
I'm like you moshe12. I used to watch each episode over and over and restart the season from the beginning but not anymore. I stopped at 4x10 and now I watch each episode just once and may review specific scenes to confirm what happened. I'm no where near watching a second time out of sheer enjoyment. I know Napoli. It's kind of sad. TVD used to be my favourite tv show and I could comment, rant and theorize over and about it constantly. Watch, rewatch etc. The show is getting watery... On the other hand I feel very attached to certain characters and they are like a second family for me. Ironically I observe one thing over and over again, not only here but also other fansites (VDN) includes me as well. For people that are supposed to be not that invested in the series anymore, there are surprisingly still very very many comments and rants and theories and opinions out there. Doesn't really not leave us untouched the SL n one way or the other I agree with both of you. I used to repeat watching seasons from the 1st season but lately I find the latest seasons to be very boring in terms of their plot. Sad that TVD has come to such. I find Originals more interesting though its just season 1...every episode has new surprises and mini stories.
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Post by Slash on May 17, 2014 7:20:52 GMT -5
On the matter of magics, aren't there 3? Standard that the Spirits were fine with and what Bonnie started off with (location spells, etc.), Black/Dark magic that she dabbled in and got her in trouble with the Spirits (binding Klaus, transferring Klaus to another body, tried to use it to keep Elena from turning) and then 'Expression', which wasn't governed by the Spirits so they couldn't stop/strip her off it (I'm assuming this would lean towards Travelers since Silas/whatshisface had to guide Bonnie in it's use to keep her from being entirely destructive with it to those around her).
Or is this just one angle/distinction that got muddy?
And call me weird but if there is something higher pre-other side that was handling Spirits, I find it hard to believe they'd just let a 'purgatory' be created that held souls just out of the spite of one woman's love/jealousy. You'd be stepping on that Being's toes and interfering with their purpose.
Maybe there is just a 'limbo' out there with pocket sides/dimensions. Qetsiyah just created her own. When it started to collapse/become weakened, those other pockets were able to take souls that were fitting to them like they probably did before Qetsiyah came into the picture. But once again, that's a huge assumption and one that once again somehow puts Qetsiyah's little pocket at the forefront to get dibs on souls.
I don't expect a logical answer/explanation to it.
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Post by Ruby on May 17, 2014 13:23:12 GMT -5
The way Marcos described witch magic was spirit magic and travelers were pure from the ground magic
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2014 16:19:40 GMT -5
On the matter of magics, aren't there 3? Standard that the Spirits were fine with and what Bonnie started off with (location spells, etc.), Black/Dark magic that she dabbled in and got her in trouble with the Spirits (binding Klaus, transferring Klaus to another body, tried to use it to keep Elena from turning) and then 'Expression', which wasn't governed by the Spirits so they couldn't stop/strip her off it (I'm assuming this would lean towards Travelers since Silas/whatshisface had to guide Bonnie in it's use to keep her from being entirely destructive with it to those around her). Or is this just one angle/distinction that got muddy? And call me weird but if there is something higher pre-other side that was handling Spirits, I find it hard to believe they'd just let a 'purgatory' be created that held souls just out of the spite of one woman's love/jealousy. You'd be stepping on that Being's toes and interfering with their purpose. Maybe there is just a 'limbo' out there with pocket sides/dimensions. Qetsiyah just created her own. When it started to collapse/become weakened, those other pockets were able to take souls that were fitting to them like they probably did before Qetsiyah came into the picture. But once again, that's a huge assumption and one that once again somehow puts Qetsiyah's little pocket at the forefront to get dibs on souls. I don't expect a logical answer/explanation to it. I think a minor plot hole was created here, and writers on The Originals have only added to the problem by playing with TVD mythology. There's Traveler magic, which was most likely the only kind of magic around in the beginning when people had to go away forever when they died. Then roughly 2,000 years ago, the Other Side was created, giving supernaturals the ability to get power from the spirits of their ancestors to use what is called "witch magic." Now the Other Side is gone, and this is where I've noticed that mythology on The Originals has caused a lot of confusion, especially for TVD haters or fans who are in denial about Damon and Bonnie being dead. "Limbo" was created by the New Orleans Coven so that their ancestral spirits would exist close to them and separately from the Other Side, it hasn't been established why. The reason why "limbo" on The Originals does not apply to other witches in the world is because only witches who were buried and consecrated in Lafayette Cemetery, or murdered there during a ritual, can dwell in limbo. All other supernaturals, including witches not consecrated by the New Orleans Coven, went to the Other Side and are now gone forever. As a result, witches will no longer have power unless they start practicing traveler magic. Davina on The Originals practices traveler magic just like Bonnie did before she died, but writers on The Originals refuse to acknowledge this point of mythology, which I'm sure also causes a little bit of confusion. Both Bonnie and Davina were both witches who had their power taken from them by their spirits and figured out how to practice magic without the help of spirits. Witches who do this are probably still referred to as witches because they were born witches, but they're really doing it old school, so to speak. This is the best explanation that I can come up with.
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Post by Slash on May 18, 2014 0:29:11 GMT -5
Ah, I dropped TVD (although all this has me interested) and need to catch up on TO so I'm not up to speed on the mythos. Sounds like I'm not too far off on people, with enough power, being able to create their own after-life 'pockets', if the NO witches have done the exact same thing as Qetsiyah.
So Traveler magic was the basic back in the old days. Eventually, when Qetsiyah created her own side for all supes to go to (still wondering how she was able to prioritize her side), she created a way to 'govern' descendants as well by being able to give or take their magic. She seems to have created a dependency for the modern day Witch on their ancestors for power.
Question is, does learning 'base/traveler' magic need an adept/potentially powerful Witch or no? We know Bonnie and Davina are powerful.
Bah, I guess I'll watch TO and TVD in tandem then =\
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